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Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by noahlh, Jan 2, 2005.
How would we identify a problem there?
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The good old fashioned way, Marks/degree wheel.
One of my reasons for disdain for timing belts is that on some cars (Ferrari's) cam timing is very sensitive and as a result of having belts it gets done quite often. That just increases the chance of having a problem, that is compounded by the fact that it seems an ever increasing percentage of people in the trade just don't know how to do it. If I, in the interview process just ask the simple question "Explain the Otto cycle" I could eliminate 7/8 or more of the candidates, that is scary. The trade schools are no help either, they teach how to run a scanner but don't teach theory. It would be like a doctor not learning any anatomy. He knows how to transplant a kidney, he just doesn't know what it does.
Too true! Modern offshore sailors face similar issues: celestial navigation is very hard to learn; why bother, when you can buy a Satnav and go? Later, (somewhere!) in the Pacific Ocean, when the lights go out on the satnav.....T.U. time......
Still nothing quite like understanding the basic concept...
It was actually Phil that brought it up. But playing the odds it is always smart to have a look at cam timing very early on in the process.
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Cam timing read from the SD2, as Rifle says, is only an electronic "bit" reading from the phase sensors mounted to the exhaust cams. It's not to be relied upon, and again as Rifle said, there is no way for the SD2 to read intake cam timing.
But at least you have made a finding that needs ruling out.
Let's hope you get a result soon.
That's a good one, need a job?
Car has been dropped off with the shop that did the major. Since they were so insistant that the car sounded "fine", I burned an audio CD with the clips posted above and played it for them on their showroom stereo system.
I don't think there's any confusion anymore.
They're going to check for exhaust leaks and adjust the timing. I'll have more info in a couple of days and will post updates.
Thanks again for the help guys...
Sounds like progress then.
Just to confirm further....the exhaust cams have a seperate Lug on them that the sensor reads from. This lug does nothing other than to pass the sensor. it has no contact with the valves etc.
I'd ask to see the cam timing marks and TDC being determined accurately, either personally or with a photo (that shows it to be your car).
Well done, Noah!
Point well made!
I've been following up Noah thread in the New York Tri-State and I cannot believe some posters continue to recommend FoCJ who performed the work any day of the week.
I have a fundemental question regarding the cam timing and cam belt replacement from those who actually perform the job. If Ferrari's own shop manual does not require a degree wheel (?) to set the cam timing what is the technician to do, especially if the tech is hurried by the shop to get the job done! Who is really at fault?
In the Ferrari shop manual section B3.02 it says unambiguously to use a degree wheel to time the cams. Exactly the same lack of ambiguity existed in the class room during training has existed since the introduction of the Testarossa. However in the case of variator replacement, a case in which Ferrari is paying the bill suddenly they no longer feel that that degree of precision is required. The degree of acceptable precision has in fact gotten so low that they have increased the size of the tolerances and are allowing the electronic method of testing, even though it only tests half of the camshafts. It is all about warranty costs. Their money is worth more than your money evidently.
Thank you for the clarification. I think all 360 owners who have had their cam belts and/or timing variators replaced should consider calling their dealers/repair shop and ask for the SD II print out to make sure at least the exhaust cam timing was set correctly. As you mention this is only half of the equation and intake cam timing must be verified through a degree wheel and is not readily available in SD II print out. I am sure as you would know there are many Ferrari owners who may not notice the power loss/gain difference if the cam timing is set wrong. Based on my research, driving a car with a wrong cam timing can severely impact the precious emissions components.
I hope your car gets sorted out, it did sound not right... And here is an Otto Cycle that a gt4 owner can understand!!!
Now I understand what you were talking about.
I´m realy sure it´s wrong timing.The engine reponse on throttle is much slower,
and i suggest you put your foot to the metal as fast as before.
You also have a backfire, cars with emission control and cat´s dont let any fuel in the exhaust ,because this can damage the catalyticonverters.
not ferrari, but having messed with the cam timing a bit on my car (kent cams adjustables) i've had wildly different sounds and power outputs with tiny movements of like 2 degrees and stuff.
another time a mechanic fergot to put the correct gasket in between my extractors and exhaust... it didn't sound like an exhaust leak, just had a raspiness to the note and felt down on power. a $2.75 gasket fixed that.
bwahahaha. that's really bad, sounds like most of the hyundai excels and honda civics around here. hope it gets sorted.
Got the car back from FoCNJ today, and it appears that all is well !!!
Here's the final diagnosis:
-- Timing was way off (647/667). Now it's back to 659/659, and that wonderful Ferrari wail is now back in full force.
-- BIG kudos to A) everyone on here, for your excellent suggestions and insights, b) WWoC, for diagnosing the problem with an SD2 scan, and c) FoCNJ, for standing behind their work and doing whatever necessary to make things good.
The only issue is that now, thanks to Mr. Rob "if it doesn't sound like a corvette it ain't worth driving" Ferretti, who insisted that the timing be advanced 2-degrees, the idle is a bit rough around the edges. I'm told there's a good possibility that the computer will self-adjust to this after a week or so, but if not we may have to go back to 657/657, which is factory spec (or so I'm told by WWoC, but I read elsewhere that it should be 652...which is it?)
I'll post new-and-improved sound clips asap...
655 to 657 is where they were set in Maranello. But do not be too confident about that. I am happy the car seems good and I hope it is. The information that is available electronically is only half the story.
I have a long story to tell that is going on right now about variator replacement and is in the hands of the lawyers and the State Bureau of Automotive Repair. I will not be able at this time to give details about who is involved but what I will tell you is about the shortcomings of the factory procedure for the job. It will be a long story and I will not be able to go into it until later next week.
Good to see Noah's car back in top form and that people here (Brian, etc.) were able to help.
Brian: I'm sure everyone, 360 owners especially, are more than anxious to hear about your findings when you can make them available.
PS: Brian - pls check thread in norcal about memorial run.
Take it to Dave Helms (303) 938-9000 Very fair and reasonable hourly rates. Even with shipping you'll save money as he will only charge for hours he feels it is worth. Always less than the others. Took a car that had so many problems it would never have passed emissions and without taking the engine out like the local dealer wanted to, he fixed everything for less than I would have ever dreamed. All that go to him never go anywhere else again. He knows ferrari like a builder knows houses. Ask around...everybody knows this guy is the best.
I will do that but will start a new thread. Look for it in tech Q+A.