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Help needed -- ran 2 days ago, now won't start

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by El Viejo Loco, Nov 23, 2017.

  1. El Viejo Loco

    El Viejo Loco Rookie

    Feb 5, 2015
    18
    Middle TN
    Full Name:
    Michael D
    365GT4 2+2 #18497, owned about 20 yrs.

    In 2011 I drove it from PA to TN, filled the tank, added StaBil, and closed it into a Car Capsule, expecting to liberate it in 6-12 months. Ha! Finally liberated it earlier this month.

    Changed oil and filters, installed new battery, topped off fluids, cranked it, and miracle of miracles: it started and ran, initially roughly and then fairly smoothly. Pressures good; idled about 5 mins (until coolant temp gauge alive), and then shut it down planning to do more work. Went back to it 2 days later and it wouldn't start. So I then:
    - checked for spark at one lead; spark present
    - drained fuel tank, drained fuel pumps and cleaned pump filters
    - checked fuel delivery at main supply line underhood; volume and pressure good.
    Still wouldn't start, so I:
    - pulled each spark plug, cleaned and checked gaps; plugs wet with fuel.
    - Connected each plug to its lead and checked for spark; all sparked.

    Cranks fine but still won't start. I really don't want to dig into the carbs but it seems that's my next (and only?) remaining step. Am I missing something? Any suggestions?

    Thanks!

    Michael
     
  2. Ferraridoc

    Ferraridoc F1 Veteran
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    Jun 20, 2012
    6,084
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    Patrick
    If you're getting spark and the plugs are wet, you've flooded it.
     
  3. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
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    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Patrick,

    It could also be that debris and/or stale fuel particulate is keeping the float's needle valves from closing... and thus causing the plugs to become wet? I say this, as a few years ago the fuel evaporated out of my Boxer's carbs (after 2 seasons of not driving the car) and the particulate left behind was quite nasty (greenish crud)... and the result was clogged the needle valves.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  4. El Viejo Loco

    El Viejo Loco Rookie

    Feb 5, 2015
    18
    Middle TN
    Full Name:
    Michael D
    That's my leading hypothesis at this point: carb issue leading to dumping fuel into the intakes, such as grit in needle valves, sunk floats, etc. I'm hoping I can pull the float chamber covers without disrupting the gaskets, but that may be too much to hope for. So:
    1. What's a good, fast source for 38DCOE gasket kits?
    2. Let's suppose, however, that I get into the carbs and don't find a culprit and still can't start it. What am I overlooking?
    3. I should also replace the fuel filter just forward of the right tank, shown as a "FISPALI 1584". Recommended source? And, what's the simplest procedure? (It's not covered in any of my reference docs).

    Thanks!
     
  5. Ramboy

    Ramboy Formula Junior
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    Aug 6, 2009
    700
    Stockholm
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    David Ramm
    Would love to see some photos Michael. According to my records you've owned #18497 since 1988, so almost 30 years!
    In the US (NY) by 1981, possibly sold new in Germany.
    Regards David
     
  6. El Viejo Loco

    El Viejo Loco Rookie

    Feb 5, 2015
    18
    Middle TN
    Full Name:
    Michael D
    Yes, that's correct (I notice now my typo in the first post: 20 yrs vs 30 yrs). I wasn't able to trace US history back all the way -- DMVs purge records -- but I know it was in NY as you say. The car was sold by Joe Marchetti's International Auto on March 30, 1981 to Mr. Eddie Wechsler in Wisconsin, an enthusiast who serially owned many Ferraris; taken back by Marchetti in trade on July 30, 1981; sold to Manhattan Leasing in NY; and registered there to Coach Auto Leasing, Lynbrook NY on 11/10/81. When I made my inquiries in 1988-9, International Auto wasn't willing to tell me their source for the car, and NY had purged records. In 1985, the car was owned by Centennial Imports in Boulder, CO, and traveled through several Colorado dealerships and leasing companies from then till 1988, when it was sold on March 16, 1988 to John Moore in Golden, CO and then soon to Southern Sports Cars in Miami, from whom I bought it in October 1988.
    The car was built in May 1975, painted rosso nearco with tan leather (pelle beige) and sold new into Germany.
    Do you have any info beyond what I've listed above?

    Thanks
    Michael
     
  7. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
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    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Michael,

    It is possible that when you had the car initially running that sediment, etc from the tank made its way through to the carb needle valves, etc? Hard to say for sure, but looking at one or more carbs will be needed.

    As for gaskets... For weber parts I usually buy items from Pierce Manifolds in Califronia or from Ferrari UK. There is also an Italian Ebay seller (alfa1750) that is remanufacturing a number of the NLA or extremely hard to get Weber parts. I bought a few items from them and then items were very good and shipped fast an reasonable. For gaskets... I prefer Pierce or Ferrari UK.

    As for item (2)... I think you need to verify your fuel integrity components first given your testing so far.

    As for item (3)... Hmmm... I thought there was only one filter and it was in the trunk to the right of the spare tire tub? Perhaps my memory is whacked? I will have to check. Regardless, for the fuel filter I buy from Ferrari UK, as some of the "replacements" as not perfect and the result is that the fuel go through the filter housing unfiltered. I saw this on my BB where the replacement filter's center rubber grommet/seal was too large and so fuel could simply bypass the filter.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  8. El Viejo Loco

    El Viejo Loco Rookie

    Feb 5, 2015
    18
    Middle TN
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    Michael D
    My thought also; that's why the carbs are next on the list. Re the fuel filter: yes, the primary filter is the one you cite (trunk), but there are also filters in each fuel pump. The latter are washable, so I did them first, not having a replacement for the trunk filter. How do you access the trunk filter for replacement -- from the trunk side or the underside? It's not shown in any reference I have.

    Thanks

    Michael
     
  9. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
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    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day again Michael,

    I cannot help with too much info, but looking through the Raab serial number book, Chassis 18497 lists the following information:

    Built: 11/4/75
    First Owner/ Dealer: Dealer MIR (?) in Germany
    Assembly Number: 383
    Body Number: 412

    It may be worthwhile to contact Mr. Marcel Massini, as he is truly the expert on the background of these older cars.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  10. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
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    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Michael,

    I think the filters at the carbs are more like screens than filters. I could be wrong on this, because I have not had mine apart yet... but on my BB they are screens. The fuel filter on my 365 is in the trunk (boot) and to the right of the spare tire and in fact you need to remove the spare tire to get full access to the filter. I will double check this, as it has been a while since I had time to work on my car.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  11. El Viejo Loco

    El Viejo Loco Rookie

    Feb 5, 2015
    18
    Middle TN
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    Michael D
    Yes, there are screens inside each carb, but there are actual filters inside each of the two fuel pumps.
    I'm not finding the 38DCOE gasket kits online at either ferrari.co.uk or pierce; I'll try phoning Pierce. Ferrari.co.uk has the fuel filter, but at a ridiculous price (about 150 pounds!). Still looking....

    Thanks

    Michael
     
  12. Bill26

    Bill26 Karting
    Owner

    Jun 19, 2005
    190
    Australia
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    Bill Murdoch
    The 40DCOE kit is the same as 38.
    I bought these on eBay for $19.50/ kit from a guy in the Czech Republic who sells a lot of Weber bits. They are nice quality and the service and delivery were fine.

    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Weber-40DCOE-Service-kit-repair-rebuild-tune-up-gasket-set-175-valve-filter-pin/291796290313?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

    Regards

    WM
     
  13. El Viejo Loco

    El Viejo Loco Rookie

    Feb 5, 2015
    18
    Middle TN
    Full Name:
    Michael D
    Thanks, Bill -- great tip! I just ordered 6.

    Now for the fuel filter: FISPALI 1584. Any suggestions?

    Spark plug leads, if needed: is there a reasonable source or do I fabricate my own?

    Thanks,

    Michael
     
  14. Ramboy

    Ramboy Formula Junior
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    Aug 6, 2009
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    Stockholm
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    David Ramm
    Thank you for the detailed history Michael, I have nothing to add unfortunately.
    As it was sold new into Germany, it probably originally had an additional plate near the chassis plate (Auto Becker), orange/white front reflectors, hexagonal wheel fixings and a round chrome door mirror.
    Original engine number will be close to *00990* and the Pininfarina number you will find on panels and trim is (probably) 275 (visible on leading edge of hood, middle, left hand side, and boot lid, right hand side edge, as well as spare wheel well).
    Regards David
     
  15. Bill26

    Bill26 Karting
    Owner

    Jun 19, 2005
    190
    Australia
    Full Name:
    Bill Murdoch
    "Clean Filters" MG 051 fits the original Fiamm filter.
    Regards
    WM
     
  16. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
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    Good day Michael,

    I am pretty sure I used the UFI/Fispa equivalent: part number is 95180050 and are about 10GBP each:

    https://www.eurospares.co.uk/search?partNumber=95180050

    You can buy these from Ferrari UK as well, but are slightly more.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  17. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 23, 2007
    4,533
    North Pole AK
    I know some people have called me cheap but I like the top of the line plug wires at NAPA. They have a 7mm set for a 6 cylinder (so you need two). These are a universal set and have the plug boots already on the end of the wires, the other end that would normally snap on to the cap do not have the ends installed. Since they slide into the cap all you have to do is cut to the length you need. While 7mm works I think they actually need to be 7.5mm. I just use a small amount of dialelectric grease where the wires go in to the cap.

    Some people say that these wires are junk and a Ferrari should have better wires but in all honestly I can't imagine these plug wires are holding my car back in anyway. The car always starts easily and pulls strong to 7000rpm.

    PS, I will have to add, I also have the Pertronics pickups in both distributers and am also using two of their matching coils.
     
  18. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula Junior

    Sep 22, 2014
    957
    Devon, UK
    Full Name:
    Graham
    Do you have a link to ones you are considering? What about the white sheathing, is that also available?

    Bill - Thanks for the link to the Weber kits :)
     
  19. El Viejo Loco

    El Viejo Loco Rookie

    Feb 5, 2015
    18
    Middle TN
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    Michael D
    Bill, do you know if those are available anywhere? My Google hits didn't seem to lead to actual orderable product.
    Thanks
    Michael
     
  20. Bill26

    Bill26 Karting
    Owner

    Jun 19, 2005
    190
    Australia
    Full Name:
    Bill Murdoch
    Sorry Michael, this looks like a dead end now. The brand new Clean Filter I have was given to me some years back by a friend who obtained some for his Lancia Flaminia. It is correct but looks like it is NLA.
    Superformance sell the UFI 26.617.00 which fits 308's, Alfa's and some others, so it may be easier to source.

    Regards

    WM
     
  21. El Viejo Loco

    El Viejo Loco Rookie

    Feb 5, 2015
    18
    Middle TN
    Full Name:
    Michael D
    FYI, Sam's tip above panned out; Eurospares part # 95180050 is available for about $13. Searching by 365GT4 2+2 does not turn it up, nor does going to the fuel parts diagram and selecting the fuel filter, but if one searches by part number it comes up with a listing of Ferraris it fits, and that list includes the 365GT4 and 400 lines. Shipping costs far more than the filter, of course.
     
  22. El Viejo Loco

    El Viejo Loco Rookie

    Feb 5, 2015
    18
    Middle TN
    Full Name:
    Michael D
    In my initial post, I said "fuel pressure and volume good". Since then, I've drained the fuel, replaced the FIAMM (in-trunk) fuel filter, R&R'd the fuel filters inside the fuel pumps (lots of grit), and rebuilt the carbs (where I may have found the original problem: most of the float valves were stuck closed, meaning no fuel flow into the carbs). Also did plugs while at it. Reassembled, no start. Short story: no fuel output from main line under the hood, although still getting "clicking" from pump(s). Pulled the in-trunk fuel filter; fuel present at filter input line. No suction on fuel output line with ignition on.
    Questions:
    - is there any need to prime the fuel pumps when you've had the system open, or will they "pull air" until they get fuel? If need to prime, how?
    - it doesn't seem plausible that one or both fuel pumps failed while I was doing this work (remember, I had good fuel flow under the hood before tearing down the system) but anything's possible. I don't have a lift, so I'm crawling under the @)#*$)$# car on jack stands. What's the easiest diagnostic approach?

    Thanks, folks!

    Michael
     
  23. El Viejo Loco

    El Viejo Loco Rookie

    Feb 5, 2015
    18
    Middle TN
    Full Name:
    Michael D
    Clarification: I had good fuel volume and pressure under the hood after doing the in-tank and in-pump filters. Since then, the fuel system was not opened except at the carbs to rebuild them. Once reassembled, no start, and I found there was no fuel delivery under the hood.
    Questions are:
    - is there any need to prime the fuel pumps when you've had the system open, or will they "pull air" until they get fuel? If need to prime, how?
    - shouldn't I be able to detect suction at the fuel filter end of the line that runs from in-trunk fuel filter to the pumps?
    - it doesn't seem plausible that one or both fuel pumps failed while I was doing this work (remember, I had good fuel flow under the hood before doing the carbs) but anything's possible. I don't have a lift, so I'm crawling under the @)#*$)$# car on jack stands. What's the easiest diagnostic approach?
    - am I overlooking some "gotcha"?

    Thanks

    Michael
     
  24. Part Time

    Part Time Formula Junior
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    Dec 16, 2013
    457
    Port St. Lucie, Fl
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    Gary Shore
    Michael....a few things to try....most "wet" fuel pumps "push" better than they "pull", IF the pump is wet and clicking, it should push fuel thru the rest of the hose/system.
    1. try leaving the fuel cap loose to let the pump work easier...
    2. try squirting fuel into the carbs to get the car running...
    3. try to fill the carbs by hand to get it running...
    4. ( the above 2 confirm the rest of the work is correct )
    5. use a brake bleeder and cobble some vac fittings together and "suck" fuel from the tanks into the clear container for brake fluid..at the engine hose...
    6. last.....pressurize the tank....gently...very gently...a shop towel in your hand and a air nozzle from your compressor..with someone watching the dangling end of your fuel line at the engine....did I say GENTLY !!
    PS: I saw a guy do this once by blowing into the tank by mouth......it works, but NOT recommended..

    Gary
     
  25. simon klein

    simon klein F1 World Champ
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    Feb 25, 2009
    14,328
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    simon klein

    If you were in Aussie I'd suggest getting a can of "Start Ya Bastard"

    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Nulon-Engine-Starter-Start-Ya-Bastard-350G-/321892809537
     
    GT Jones, larryg and davidoloan like this.

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