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Help Please! - My Testarossa starts for about a second then stops

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by gfrench, Mar 15, 2006.

  1. gfrench

    gfrench Rookie

    Mar 14, 2006
    9
    Having received further help fom Steve Magnusson in Post No. 22 of this thread I set about trying to determine if the left hand coil / power module was the cause of my problem. I undertook the following checks:~

    Swopped over complete LH & RH coils/modules
    Swopped over LH & RH coils but retained power modules as original
    Swopped over LH & RH power modules but retained coils as original

    With all options the results were the same in that the engine would still only run for circa 2 seconds then stop.

    I then went back over old ground & checked the voltage readings at the tachometric relay, the resistance of the cable from the tachometric relay to the starter solonoid & from the tachometric relay to the LH coil. The results obtained were approximately the same as those noted in my post No. 21, hence I am pretty confident that there are no errors this time!

    Prior to Steve's last post I did not realise that with the tachometric relay jumped that the car was probably running on one bank only. I checked this & found that it runs on solely on the RH bank, irrespective of which option of coil / power module I had installed.

    As suggested by Steve in Post No. 19 I took an AC voltage reading between terminals 1 & 31 of the tachometric relay with the engine running via a jumper between terminals 30 & 87. The reading was 0.008V

    I am stuck as to what my next move should be, so once again I would be grateful for any help & assistance

    Greg
     
  2. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    Well, that is an unusual result, but I think that you have to now conclude that the problem is either:

    1. the ignition ECU itself (let's hope not),

    2. the wiring going from the ignition ECU to the LH power module/coil, or

    3. something in the ground or +12V power going to the LH power module/coil.

    (One nice thing about TR is that there's only one set of flywheel input sensors so if either side is working ignition-wise that suggests that the flywheel input sensors are OK.)

    The first thing you should do is just try reseating/inspecting the 25-pin connector at the ignition ECU (are you feeling lucky? ;)), but otherwise, I'd suggest that you make some electrical measurements at the power module connections (when you've got the tachometric relay socket jumped 30-to-87 and the engine running) and compare the working RH side to the non-working LH side -- I'll have a peek at the schematic tonight and make some suggestions.
     
  3. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
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    I am seriously impressed reading through this thread. Steve, I believe your the fellow who owned a somewhat higher mileage 79 308 years back I was interested in back on Flist in '97? Glad you got your TR. I presently own two 308's. So it all works out eventually. But what you have given for information in this situation is absolutely outstanding. This is the reason forums can be of so much benifit.

    I did have a thought, but not familiar it may be moot. Do the TR's of this vintage use a ballast resistor on the coil? If so, is it possible it could be dead, allowing the car to run only when the key is in the start position? Either way, the flow chart mentality of solving this problem is text book. Someone buy Steve a beer.
     
  4. brian.s

    brian.s F1 Rookie
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    Also check the two connector blocks, left side (under the coolant tank I think) don't have a TR in shop at the moment. I have had a bad contact at these cause a non-running issue.

    Brian
     
  5. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    #30 Steve Magnusson, Apr 19, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thanks for the kind words Paul -- just trying to help one of the TR brethren.

    OK Greg, if it’s any consolation, you are now past where anyone here has had to go before ;)

    Ideally, you’d like to make these measurements at the ignition ECU connector (and the TR OM has a decent figure to get you from these wire colors at the coils/power modules over to the ignition ECU connector), but without the special “interconnector 95970020” it’s virtually impossible IME. I’m not even sure that you can easily make these measurements at the coil/power module connectors, but it’s your only hope IMO. The measurements described below assume that everything is plugged in (except for you jumping the tachometric relay socket) and the engine is running:

    7/12 side

    Measurement #1
    (+) probe = coil terminal 15 = the G wires
    (-) probe = engine block = ground
    Should be +12V DC

    Measurement #2
    (+) probe = coil terminal 1 = the R wires
    (-) probe = engine block = ground
    No spec given, but measure both the DC and AC voltage for comparison to the other side
    (this is the same measurement as terminal 1 to terminal 31 at the tachometric relay)

    Measurement #3
    (+) probe = the 2.5 N wire at the power module
    (-) probe = engine block = ground
    Should be 0V DC (or maybe a few tenths of a volt maximum)

    Measurement #4
    (+) probe = the BN wire at the power module
    (-) probe = the BR wire at the power module
    Should be 2.8 to 3.2 V DC (per Diagnosis Sheet N. 1 which has the ominous note: “If 0V and the engine is running on 6 cylinder replace control unit”)

    1/6 side

    Measurement #5
    (+) probe = coil terminal 15 = the G wires
    (-) probe = engine block = ground
    Should be +12V DC

    Measurement #6
    (+) probe = coil terminal 1 = the R wires
    (-) probe = engine block = ground
    No spec given, but measure both the DC and AC voltage for comparison to the other side

    Measurement #7
    (+) probe = the 2.5 N wire at the power module
    (-) probe = engine block = ground
    Should be 0V DC (or maybe a few tenths of a volt maximum)

    Measurement #8
    (+) probe = the GV wire at the power module
    (-) probe = the GR wire at the power module
    Should be 2.8 to 3.2 V DC (per Diagnosis Sheet N. 1 which has the ominous note: “If 0V and the engine is running on 6 cylinder replace control unit”)

    Good luck -- let us know the results of each measurement when you have a chance.
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  6. fletch62

    fletch62 Formula Junior

    Mar 8, 2004
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    You need to find out if the engine is quiting because of fire or fuel / Air. To find this out check for major air leaks, this would cause lack of fuel because the airflow sensor plate would not have enough vacume. I would put fuel pressure guages on it and find out what is going on with the fuel system and then work backwards to see where the problem is. If you need help testing the fuel system call me and I can talk you through it.

    Larry Fletcher
    CIS Flow Tech Llc
    251-929-3771
     
  7. gfrench

    gfrench Rookie

    Mar 14, 2006
    9
    Steve Magnuson kindly provided me with another incredibly detailed reply in Post#30. Unfortunately domestic duties relating to a new kitchen has delayed me in getting back into the garage to undertake the checks. I have however now got there and I note below the findings which have me completly mystified.

    I inspected the connections on both Electonic Conrol Units. They were perfectly clean. I applied WD40 to them before reconnecting. It made no difference.

    I checked in the parts manual the part numbers for the ECU's and noted that it was the same for both units. Similarly the Bosch numbers on the casings were the same. I then swopped the units over to see if this would make a difference with the unit that controls the LH coil. It made no difference.

    In Post#29 Brian.s had suggested that the two connector blocks on the left hand side under the coolant header tank could cause a non running issue. I inspected both of these. They were perfectly clean and coated in vaseline, presumeably as they are disconnected each time that the engine has been out for a belt change. Re-connecting them made no difference.

    The next task was to try to verify the voltage readings that Steve had given me. I made up a set of wires that would plug in between the terminal pins and the connector block to the left hand coil, 7/12 side. I found that on my car this side only had only four wires connected to the coil, which were two yellow G wires, one red R wire and one white striped red BR wire.

    The right hand coil, 1/6 side, has three wires connected. These are two yellow G wires and one red R wire.

    The readings recorded on the LH coil with the engine running by jumping the tachometric relay were:~

    Yellow G wire "+" 13.9V
    Yellow G wire "+" 14.0V
    Red R wire "+" 13.1V
    White srtiped red BR wire - "+" 13.15 V

    At this point I realised that rather than running on one bank only the engine was now running perfectly on both banks. My assumption was that the problem must be a bad contact in the connector block to the coil.

    Leaving the wires plugged in between the connector block and the coil I removed the jumper and replaced the tachometric relay. The engine then ran perfectly on both banks.

    I inspected the coil terminal pins & the connector block, cleaned them and applied vaseline to them before reconnecting them. Once connected the two second running problem reoccurred.

    I then plugged back in the made uo wires between the pins and the terminal block and again the engine ran perfectly. I again inspected the pins and connectors, along with levering the connectors with a fine pin in order to tighten them. Once correctly plugged back together, again the two second running problem reoccurred.

    I repeated this exercise half a dozen times with consistantly the same results. With the termional block correctly plugged into the coil, the engine would run for two seconds only. With made up wires connecting the terminal block to the coil the engine runs perfectly on both banks.

    I am convinced that there is nothing wrong with either the terminal pins to the coil or the terminal block. It cannot be that there is a broken wire that I am bypassing as I am connecting onto the connectors/pins directtly and not cutting into the wiring loom.

    As stated at the start of this post, I am completly mystified by this. My only uneducated wild guess is that possibly the current in white striped red BR wire that connects to the tachometric relay is an induced current from the coil. By having a further length of wire connected to it, it somehow assists this process?

    Any thoughts on this one would be gratefuly recieved, as ever!

    Greg
     
  8. gfrench

    gfrench Rookie

    Mar 14, 2006
    9
    As I have pretty well admitted defeat I called in a Mobile Technician who specialises in Bosch Fuel Injection electrical problems.

    Having explained to him the symptons & the checks undertaken he promptly concluded that this was a job beyond his capabilities and left!

    I need to find a specialist in the UK, preferably in the London area. Clearly I could pack it off to a main dealer, but I am not sure that they would have sopmeone with enough detailed electrical knowledge.

    If anyone has any recommendations please let me know.

    Greg
     
  9. gfrench

    gfrench Rookie

    Mar 14, 2006
    9
    At last It runs properly!!!

    I found an auto electrician who was happy to take a look at it & I took him through the checks that had been undetaken. Having showed him that I could make it run by inserting separate wires between the LH coil & the connector block he had no hesitation in saying that it was a bad connection here.

    That said he identified the problem as one of the two yellow wires that I believe to supply +12V form the ignition. It then took a further 2 hours of messing about with the terminals before it would finally make contact when plugged together. This included soldering the wires to the terminals, cleaning them, bending them, twisting them & finally tinning the terminal post.

    I had previously tried most of this without success & am amazed thst what appeared to be a perfectly clean & sound connection would not pass current.

    My sincere thanks to everyone who provided me with assistance & suggestions as to what the problem might be. Most of all I am indebted to Steve Magnusson (91 TR) whose knowledge is amazing & who went to enormous lengths to provide me with the most incredibly detailed help.

    I would never have got this far without Steve. Thanks very much: I owe you one.

    It still nags at me that it was so difficult to make the connector block to the coil pass current & I wonder if it will fail again. Idealy I would like to replace the connector so if anyone knows where you can get them, or what other common car they are used on, please let me know.

    Regards

    Greg
     
  10. Reman

    Reman Rookie

    Sep 27, 2018
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    #35 Reman, Oct 11, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 11, 2018
    Hi I need help, my testarossa won't start. Followed most tread, need to pm Steve magnusson, appreciate it.
     
  11. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    I don't like using PMs Reman (they can't be edited, nor can I add pictures). What does "won't start" mean -- 1) the starter motor never cranks, 2) the starter motor cranks the engine over, but it never fires, 3) the starter motor cranks the engine over, and it does "cough" intially but doesn't stay running, 4) something else?
     
  12. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    A total guess here, but......

    It could be that you have a plugged fuel pump?

    The reason I say this is because the 512 uses the same fuel pump dampening sleeve that the 348 uses. The rubber used in the factory part disintegrates and breaks off. Have a read of my thread to see what I'm describing. https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/348-fuel-pump-rebuild.224988/ If it was me, I would drain the fuel tank and inspect the fuel pump sleeve/s for deterioration. I think Ricambi sells replacements that are made out of Viton, instead of Buna (?) that I'm guessing the original sleeve are made out of.
     
  13. taz355

    taz355 F1 Rookie
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    Mine thread recently also shows the disintegration of parts within my tank at the pump.
     
  14. Reman

    Reman Rookie

    Sep 27, 2018
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    Reman
    Hi Steve, my car is my 91 F113B, no cat no oxygen sensor, only 2000 true miles on it. 3 relays only in the black box which 1 of those is protection relay. Issues, it cranked alright but not fired up. However using throttle body cleaner sprayed in the intake, it fired up for 2 sec and stopped. I did spayed each of left intake initially the later I did similar to right intake, both fired up for 2 sec. I tried to establish whether it is fuel, sparks or air.

    Questions,
    1. Can the car started with tb cleaners spayed into the intake with defective ignition ecu? Somehow something telling the ecu not happy to continue running.
    2. Can the car run with defective KE fuel ecu?

    Back ground,
    I did a lot of work in this car, flowing leaky diaphragm on left fuel accumulator, caused the left plunger on fuel distributor stuck half open due to no pressure. Cleaned both plunger on both distributors, changed with new fuel accumulators, both regulators n filters, refreshed all intake gasket, air hoses, fuel hoses, new brass injectors, new started cable from battery to starter, new ground cables from batt to switch and new ground from switch to chassis. New battery ofcourse.
    It ran great for 6 months, FYI I only started the car once every week for 10 munites.

    Then one day, I did not fired up unless with tb cleaner ran for 2 sec. Opened up both distributors cleaned them up and tried to start it with no success with or without cold injector connected.
    Checked resistance on plugs wires and resistance was out of spec something like 10k ohms or so where it should have been like 700 ohm per foot. Changed with new ignition wires, rotors, distributors no success. Checked tdc and crank sensor static check both read 678 and 688 ohms. I changed them with new anywhere also no success.
    Swiped left and right Coil, not success. Changed both brand new Coil and black module no success.
    Checked all wiring,
    My car has always been, soon as I put the key on 2, tachometric relays closed and activated the fuel pumps and protection relay.
    Voltage with key in position 2, as said tachometric relay will closed pump running,
    Tachometric relay reads as follows,
    31...signal at 12v.
    1...12v
    30.....12v
    50...0 v
    87...12v
    31....ground.

    When starter is engaged or when engined used to run,
    Similar reading with blue white wire at 50 go to 12v. In fact 10.5 v during cranking.

    With tachometric relay closed,
    Red wire 12v, pin 1 n 2 fuel ecu 12v, pin 24 read 10.5 v during cranking or alternator current wheels used to run. Water thermistor both read 1940ohm n 1800 ohm at pin out in ecu at 30 degree c which are OK. Both tdc and crank position sensor read 678 n 688 at pin 1 n2 and 3 n 16 of ignition ecu.
    The infamous connectors both under coolant and black box cleaned and reset more than 100 times.
    All voltages checked OK, e. G at
    Y connector,
    2.5 GN to ignition ecu 12v
    1.0 G to 7 to 12 Coil.. 12v
    2.5 B from ig it ion key.. 10.5 to 11 v during cranking.
    2.5 Pn fuel pumpn13v
    1.0 G 1 to 6 Coil.. 12v
    0.8 BL wire.. 10.5 to 11v during cranking, if started more than 12v.
    Red wire at left Coil.. 12v
    Reb and white wire left Coil 12v to signal terminal 1 at tachometric relay. Pin 13 of ignition ecu 12v.

    Thinkin of ignition ecu, but plugs are sparking, and engine fired up with starter fluid. Can it be?
    Fuel ecu? But it should be even able to start even without it, isn't it?
    Check for fuel deliveries, pressure OK, in fact lots of pressure at cold injectors when I tried to crack it open. Removed the screw from main I Hector's in random and plugged the with old injector, fuel came out when I depressed the air ate which opened up the plunger at fuel distributors. The I thought maybe bad fuel, drained it via the tank intetconnect pipe, and filled with new fuel also with no avail.
    I am running out of ideas on what else Thinkin could be ecu but which one.? Fuel or ignition ecu? Something in ecu brain not happy to keep the engine running.

    Pls bear with me Steve with the long info above to help you in diagnosing. Many thanks.
     
  15. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    Not surprised that you've had a lot of fuel system problems on a 27 year old Bosch CIS car with such low miles -- Bosch CIS really needs to have fresh fuel flowing/circulating to stay healthy.

    I don't like that pin 87 is at +12V with the key in Pos II without the engine running (but that would cause the fuel pump relays to close and run the fuel pumps). However, I don't understand what you are saying is happening at terminal 31 -- you have it at both "signal at 12v" and "ground". Please explain (with the tachometric relay plugged in, measure the voltage from terminal 31 to chassis ground with the key "on" Pos II).

    Having it fire up and run briefly using the starter fluid is a good sign for the ignition, but I think the easiest first thing to try is:

    1) remove the tachometric relay from its socket,
    2) use a jumper wire to connect the female terminal 30 in the socket to the female terminal 87 in the socket (simulating an always closed tachometric relay) - the fuel pumps should run even with the key "off".
    3) then try starting the engine to see if it will keep running.
     
  16. Reman

    Reman Rookie

    Sep 27, 2018
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    Hi Steve, thanks for your prompt reply. Lots of typo error as I did not review it before posting. Sorry my bad.

    The 31 that I typed earlier at 12v supposed to be terminal 15 at 12v. Terminal 31 always ground. Terminal 31 to chassis 0 ohm, 0 v.

    I did try as you suggested already, removed tachometric and jumped 30 to 87, yes pump running protection relay activated and 12v at red wire and also at fuel ecu at pin 1. Not even fired up a slightest. Just crank crank..
     
  17. Reman

    Reman Rookie

    Sep 27, 2018
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    What puzzled Me Also, am I supposed to get 12v for terminal 1 from left hand coils white red wire. I did. Measure red wire.. 12 v. And nothing from red white wire if 4 pin plastic connector unplugged from coil. Soon as I plugged this 4 pin connector back, white red wire goes to 12v sending this terminal 1 at tachometric relay. Is this correct. Or do i suppose to measure AC voltage terminal 1 and 31 when it is cranking...
     
  18. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    Why can't it ever be easy :(. Understand your clarification that it's pin 15 at +12V and pin 31 is at ground, but pin 87 should not be at +12V for those conditions with the key "on" and the engine not running so something is still wacky there. Have you ever unplugged the tachometric relay and measured the voltage from the female terminal 87 to ground (or female terminal 31)? If it was still +12V, I'd be concerned that someone make a modification somewhere to force the fuel pumps to always run with the key just in Pos II with the engine not running.

    Although you say it does fire when cranking using starter fluid, if the fuel pumps are running and it doesn't even "cough" during cranking then I think you'd need to put a timing light (or spark tester) on each bank to really confirm/deny if spark is occurring on both banks during starter motor cranking.

    Yes, that's correct -- the primary winding of the 7-12 coil is essentially just a solid wire, so when things are plugged in, the BR wire going to terminal 1 of the tachometric relay is also connected to the G wires on terminal 15 of the coil (and those are at +12V with the key "on" - so the BR and R wire will also both be at +12V when the engine isn't running). When you unplug that 4-pin connector both the R wire and the BR wire should go to 0V -- Are you saying the R wire stays at +12V even when the 4-pin connector is unplugged?

    Yes, you could try measuring the AC voltage between terminal 1 and terminal 31 at the tachometric relay during starter motor cranking; however, it wouldn't tell you anything more than looking for spark presence in the spark plug wires with a timing light (and you seem to have the opposite problem from the tachometric relay not closing -- yours seems to be closed with just the key "on").
     
  19. Reman

    Reman Rookie

    Sep 27, 2018
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    Steve,
    Sorry I have been busy checking my timing belt. Fortunately there are both in line.
    Measuring 87 to 31.. 0 volt.
    I think it must have caused by my alarm system. Fitted 20 yrs ago, the alarm. Installer may have bisected some Of the ignition wire. But this is not my concerns it has been great the last 20 years with this flaw. Issue is the car not even started. I tried to start the car with both fuel ecu unconnected, still not firing. Do you know if this car can be started without fuel ecu?
    Confirmed that all 12 cylinders sparks.

    I did check also ecu pin 14 and 18, 8 volt, Moving down with air plate depressed. Also tried to check eha output, 10 n 12, 0.39 v, not moving even if I pushed the airplate down.
    I am suspecting fuel. Ecu failure.can I just buy them From. Ebay. It is specific for 113b without lambda catless?
    Thanks Steve.
     
  20. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    It wouldn't run well, as when they are unplugged, the EHA currents would be zero (which leans things out). The nominal warm EHA current is 10mA at sea level, and is even higher during cold starting to add enrichment. But even with the injection ECUs unplugged, the cold start injectors should still squirt during cold starting so if you don't get even a "cough" during cold starting that seems odd. Have you ever measured the voltage (or used a test light) at one of the cold start injector connectors between the two pins during the first cold start cranking attempt to see if it goes +12V for a second or two?

    Getting the +8V between pins 14 and 18 at the injection ECU is a good thing, but your should also measure between pins 14 and 17 as you move the airflow metering plate -- the voltage should be 0V in the rest position and change smoothly vs deflection of the airflow metering plate up to the +8V when fully deflected.

    With regard to the EHA voltage (pin 10 to pin 12) being 0.39V, this seems not an unreasonable value for a cold engine with the dual channel coolant thermister plugged in: 0.39V/20 Ohms of the EHA = 20mA EHA current (which would add enrichment when cold vs the nominal 10 mA when the engine is warm). Per the Diagnosis Sheet Nr. 6 (and guessing also Diagnosis Sheet Nr. 5), if you make this same measurement with the dual channel coolant temp thermister unplugged, the voltage between pins 10 and 12 should increase greatly to 1.5~2.5V. If you then crank the starter (with the dual channel coolant thermister still unplugged), the voltage should increase more to ~3V and then decrease back to the 1.5~2.5V value. If none of this works, you could be more confident that the injection ECU is bad -- but be super careful doing this as if you short pin 10 to pin 12 you will blow-up the injection ECU (I learned this the hard way ;)).

    With regard to the EHA voltage (pin 10 to pin 12) not changing when you move the airflow metering plate, I believe this depends on the rate that the airflow metering plate is moved (not its position). Only if the airflow plate is moved quickly would the EHA voltage change briefly (to add extra fuel like the acc pump on a carb).

    Do you have a copy of Diagnosis Sheet Nr. 5?

    Don't know. The TR SPC shows different injection ECUs for KE-Jet with Lambda F113A040 and KE-Jet without Lambda F113B (and it looks like they mangled the versions a little in the SPC text). Whether, or not, an injection ECU for F113A040 with no oxygen sensor connected will behave the same as an injection ECU for F113B = I just don't know for sure (but it might).
     
  21. Reman

    Reman Rookie

    Sep 27, 2018
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    The last 20yrs running have been without cold start injector I believed as we are in hot climate. I am not sure. Last year I did wonder about this and checked as well how orange wire would trigger 12 volts momentarily during cold start. It never did. Ground via thermotime is good. I did modify using white wire jumped to positive cold injector for a while, but later I removed it, as starting was worse with injector squirting. Another weird things as well, I depressed both airplate for few second simulating fuel came out from nozzles for starting not even cough. I have this photo from another tread from Oz guys in Melbourne that you interacted with I notice my 2 relays in black box is reverse from this picture I took from him as attached.
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  22. Reman

    Reman Rookie

    Sep 27, 2018
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    Thought I measured between 14 n 18, I got 8v, then depressing the air plate down, voltage gradually coming down to 0 with it deflected fully down.
     
  23. Reman

    Reman Rookie

    Sep 27, 2018
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    I don't have sheet no 5 or anything.
     
  24. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    #49 Steve Magnusson, Oct 22, 2018 at 8:28 PM
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2018 at 8:38 PM
    Unfortunately, they don't show the wire insulation colors for the wires inside triangular black box, but the relay with the orange slash should be in the socket that has two wires on both terminal 85 and 86. The ...113 relay would be in the socket with one one wire on both terminal 85 and 86.

    No, the voltage between pins 14 and 18 on the injection ECU should be a constant 8V. The variable voltage is between pins 14 and 17.

    You can at least get a copy of Diagnosis Sheet Nr 6 here:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/gm81j3cq3048qe1/TR Diagnosis Sheet N 6 US KE-Jet Injection.pdf?dl=0

    And a copy of the 459/86 wiring diagram for the F113B here (if you don't have it):

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ox8kxpyzlsid9jn/Wiring Diagrams TR 459_86 from Ben.pdf?dl=0
     

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