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Help point out the flaws in this turbo plan

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by GrigioGuy, Feb 29, 2004.

  1. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
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    Nov 26, 2001
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    Greetings.

    I have to get more power out of my 328. It's stock and running well (223 HP at the wheels yesterday), but it needs more.

    I wanted to start conservative for now, so I want to avoid having to install a full EMS and EFI. Basically I want to emulate the setup on the Turbo GTS/B, where they plugged a 1.05 bar IHI unit in and pressurized the incoming flow to the K-jet.

    In theory I should be able to get 10-15 PSI without making major mods to the motor/intake/plenum.

    Am I missing anything major here? Once I get my password reset at the owners site I'll pull down the GTS turbo manual to see exacly how it's set up.

    If I'm being a complete idiot, that's cool too. Let me know what I'm clueless on, and we'll keep working on the concept.
     
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  3. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
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    check turbo vs non turbo compression ratios. I'm guessing there may be a difference, perhaps fairly major 10-15%, there.

    I don't know on F cars, but any other turbo spec I've seen showed lower compression ratios on turbo cars.

    i.e. 2004 Porsche turbo 9.4:1 normally aspirated engine 11.3:1

    So, you're talking cams, pistons, different heads maybe?
     
  4. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
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    a supercharger would be easier to do in labor, parts time ,ect. a mild blower with the stock engine internals seems like it would be a better choice unless you have tons of time and $$$$ to throw at the car. just my opionion but going into the engine and replacing parts when she runs well now seems to be asking for trouble. you can remove the blower later when the cry babies at car shows bug you about modifing the car. or if it becomes and issue at resale. i have had several turbo cars and i would not wish those headaches on anyone. some were factory, some were not. ferrari parts are not too expensive to destroy because you are on the learning curve still. or if you have tons of $$$$ igore my non-owner post and pay a tuner to do it all for you. i would love to see it when you are done, so please post pics whatever route you choose. michael
     
  5. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
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    Factory compression on the 328 is 9.8:1, the GTS turbo ran 7.5:1. Anyone know a good calculator to figure what 15PSI@7.5 is equivalent to at 9.8?

    I'm not looking to open the motor up at all. Money is definitely an object :)

    carreaper, do you truly believe a blower solution is easier/lower cost? At a rough look, I'd have to modify the pullies, plenum, etc. Mike_E (i think) is running a supercharged 308, but there's been some very extensive mods made to that car.

    Thanks for the feedback, keep it coming...
     
  6. 348 Turbo

    348 Turbo Formula 3

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  8. TCM

    TCM Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2003
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    From my experience in the industry, this is a bad idea. You are going in with the completely wrong attitude. Money should be no object if you want to start doing serious engine mods to your car. That engine/chasis will not take prolonged use of forced induction. The car was produced to run with what is in it stock. You will have to beef up the suspension, brakes, wheels, possibly frame, driveline, and the internal engine components for a solid and reliable car. I would suggest sticking NA and do things that make the car fun. If you want more power, go buy an American car or Japanese car that is cheap and easy to modify. You also do not have to worry about sourcing new parts like you would in the Ferrari's case. I do not mean to shoot down your plans, but I would definately do more research before pursuing this. Hope this helps and please keep us updated.
     
  9. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
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    Not to put too fine a point on it, if any of us were logical we wouldn't be buying Italian cars. There's always something cheaper and faster.

    For me, the 328 is the perfect Ferrari form. I love the balance and handling of the car. I love the seating position, I love the looks, I even love the balky shifter. However, I'd really like more straight-line grunt. I don't track the car, so I don't see wanting an additional 50-150 HP is going to stress the chassis, although cooling and the clutch might need some checking.

    I'm aware that this will cost money. I have no intention of trying to save $500 only to pay $20000 down the line from that decision. That being said, I don't believe in paying the Ferrari Premium, where generic things like exhaust work or Bosch K-Jetronic work suddenly gets more expensive simply because of the badge. There were plenty of other brands that used the K-Jet and turbos in the 70s and 80s, so it should be adapatable to my car. What I'm trying to avoid here is having to hack on my intake manifold to install fuel rails, new injectors, etc.

    That's why I'm posting here, to research whether this is practical and what to watch for. I know there's people who have made similar mods to their 3x8s and I want to learn from their experiences.
     
  10. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
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    Tillman, as you probalbly know i am not an owner yet, but i have thousands of hours of wrench time on various cars and aircraft. i suggested the supercharger to prevent you from having to modify the heads, replace the pistons, find a place for the new exhaust and wastegate, intercooler ect. yes you will have to have new pulleys , new intake ect. but the cams pistons , rods ect could remain untouched and out of the $$$ equation. i really enjoy your posts and i mean no disrespect but turbos are a REAL pain in the butt for day to day use. the jap factory turbo cars are way better than any of the GM / American types. still they are not fun to work on and diagnose and the parts for those cars are common and cheap. a unhappy turbo can ruin a engine before you have time to check the gauges and stop the car. i understand the desire to keep what you are happy with and make it faster, but at the price point you are at for labor and parts, perhaps another 328 engine " BUILT" with more compression and mods ect would be better for you to persue and you can drive your car while it is bieng built. i have fixed and destroyed some neat cars. turbos are trouble unless you have $$$$$$$$ to spend and dont care how long it will take to get your car. please keep us posted , this is a great thread! michael
     
  11. JeffMN

    JeffMN Rookie

    Jan 18, 2004
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    Nitrous oxide.

    I'm not talking a cheap bolt on dry kit, but a well engineered, conservatively jetted wet kit. We can argue over the risks, but IMHO 50HP isn't going to harm anything.

    Personally I wouldn't go the turbo route. You'll need to dump quite a bit of compression, a different cam profile probably wouldn't hurt, deal with plumbing in the turbo, and route it through the exhaust.

    All that and you'll have HP you have to wait on.

    -Jeff
     
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  13. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    While it may seem this way, this has really been proven untrue by experience. Mark Eberhard has about 600 ponies from his blown 308 and is doing fine sans chassis mods; Norwood has done many of the mild turbo boosts to about 350+ with little modification without problem. Ric Rainbolt has done multiple mods to multiple cars and raced without problem. Doc Fung on the Ferrari List has installed nitrous. The suspension issue has come up many times before - The stock suspension can tolerate mild to modest performance increases without requiring modification. The frame is incredibly strong - that's why Ferraris are so @#$%^&* heavy. In summary, there is an entire range of things you can do for horsepower and reliability without having to re frame the whole car.

    Nothing wrong with wanting to or modifying a Ferrari (heck, folks in Europe and America have been doing it for 50 years - the most prolific being Ferrari himself), BUT, it is as TCM said a bit more expensive - it is a niche market and usually requires some machined parts. No big deal, just a bit expensive. Also need to watch out for emissions testing if that is applicable.

    Here are some of the standard shops in America that I would suggest calling, in no particular order (* = I have used them and recommend):
    *Norwood's (James Patterson) www.norwoodperformance.com (FChat Sponsor)
    Nick's (Nick Scianna) www.nicksforzaferrari.com (FChat Sponsor)
    *Durable1 (Kermit Morgan) www.durable1.com
    *Carobu Engineering (Tate Casey) www.carobu.com

    The FChat supercharging expert is Mark Eberhard, and has documented his project with incredible workmanship and results (see Search). Paul Airey has installed hotter P-6 racing cams and re-jetted his carbs to match with impressive results. The expertise resident on this board is amazing.

    Anyway, you pays your $ and takes your choice - just have fun doing it and talk to the folks that have done it before.

    Good luck!
    Russ
     
  14. atheyg

    atheyg Guest

    I don't think you could go 1 bar without lowering the cr, you could go mild maybe .4 bar which would get you 70-100 hp

    I recall seeing a Boxer on ebay with a twin turbo and stock cr at .4 bar, he claimed it was very mild on the engine stress and offered 100hp more
     
  15. sparetireless

    sparetireless Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
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    Try 5 to 7 pounds of boost for a stock motor, each pound is worth about 7% more HP. Beyond that, a little water injection may help, sounds weird but a few drops of water when the boost hits works real well with no side effects.
    15 pounds with no mods, (ie lower compression) you are kidding your self.
     
  16. triXXXter

    triXXXter Formula Junior

    Nov 11, 2003
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    Ok I may be wrong here but boost going into the engine is still boost. Either from a Supercharger or turbocharger. "...replace pistons, rods ect..." as long as you stay with a lower level of boost for that engine's NA compression, should be ok. As for the exhaust heads, BOV and wastegates, there are going to be additional parts needed for Supercharger too. There are a lot of additional parts needed both ways. Maybe look into some performance benefits from NA tuning. Like more aggressive cams and intake and exhaust upgrades. No turbo lag to deal with either. I love turbo setups, don't get me wrong. (My friends turbo MR2 http://www.poorboytuners.stangnet.com/WarrensMR2.htm )

    My 2 cents.
     
  17. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
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    as super charger is " usually" a bolt on deal. a pulley and a belt, some intake plumbing. the cams, valve train, pistons , rods ect are not usually touched out of " necessity" as with a turbo. the 308 0r 328 can use the exisiting comp ratio with a mild supercharger , while a turbo will require the heads cams and pistons to be changed or modded to lower the comp ratio. yanking the heads on a fcar and going to play in the engine is big $$$$ and the machine work must be top notch. i think its a great endeavor if one has time and lots of money. someone metioned emissions which is another great point i forgot about. great thread .... have togoto work!!!!!1 yikes!
     
  18. wax

    wax Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Saw a Supercharger installed on TV last night (Important: Not on a TV). Evidently, even an old, arthritic, blind leper could do it. After the leper is done, bump the timing up to 32 - Dyno - bump down to 28 - Dyno - compare.
     
  19. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Don't you believe it....if they were don't a small block chevy there probably is a kit that just bolts on and comes with all the info to make it run. There is no kit for a ferrari so every part needs to be designed and made. It turns out that there is nothing easy about designing and making an intake manifold, or reworking the cooling system plumbing to get everything out tof the way of the blower and drive belt. If you choose to side mount the blower, you save the intake and cooling system work, but then the drive belt runs through the supports for the shock mount on frame, so you'd either need to rework the frame or design an offset drive of some type to reach around the frame. Then it needs to be tuned, that will take an expert 8-12 hours, the rest of us spend days or weeks. It's not a job for the faint of heart.

    Installing a turbo requires some custom header work, I'd say it's about a toss-up for blower/turbo difficulty, but I think the turbo may be slightly easier....but that could be because I haven't try that yet.

    I didn't realize the 328 were 9.8:1 compression, I had 9.2 in my head for some reason. That limits the boost a bit for pump gas. I'd think that even intercooled 5-10 psi is about it, so 30-50% increase in hp. Boost is boost, you can run the same number turbo or blower, although with a modern screw type blower, I think you get a little more hp at any boost level because the exhaust is not restricted. Also I blower produces a torque curve that is almost as flat a naurally aspirated engine and is just as responsive, there is no no lag to deal with. The lag with a low boost trubo is not that bad either really, but it is noticable.

    The last thought is that I wouldn't go so far as to say "Money should be no object if you want to start doing serious engine mods to your car', BUT for any project the budget should be clearly defined or you're going to run into problems. The standard equation is Hp=$^3. You can either pick a hp you want to hit or set a stending limit, but you can't set both. Also, goal creep is very common in projects, that means set a goal and write it down, because as soon as it looks like you will hit say 350hp, you'll want 375 and so on (I started with 450 and so on'd myself up to 600). I do not believe that a turbo or blower can be done with less than a $6k parts budget and could easily be $8k just in parts. If you have to pay to have thinkgs made or installed, it will run you 1.5 to 2 times more. I think about 300-320 hp on a 328 is the cross over point where it is cheaper to make the power by adding boost than natural aspiration, that's about all EFI and cams will get you, after that you'll be into the engine and the spending goes way up.
     
  20. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

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    Euro 328 compression = 9.8 (270 hp)
    USA 328 compression = 9.2 (260 hp)
     
  21. gyrokeith

    gyrokeith Rookie

    Feb 26, 2004
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    Hey..

    I was considering adding a little boost to my 308. By the time I had thought about the addition of a boost retard ignition, new exhaust plumbing and a fuel sytem better than that k-jetronic I knew it was a 7-10K proposition. I would say thay most engines can tolerate a third of an atmosphere (5psi) boost. I think if I wanted more power I would go with a non-positive displacement blower or nitrous oxide.

    And wait till you see the octane requirements!!

    I am not running 25% toluene just to drive around town a little faster..

    But maybe that's just me...
     
  22. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
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    Ok, lots of good info in the thread so far.

    Thanks for the correction on the CR of the US model. The lower value is actually better for this application, as I understand it.

    CarReaper, I'm probably being dense but I don't understand something in your argument. You state that turbo applications need head work, new pistons, etc. etc. while blowers do not. I thought boost==boost. The only real difference is how the compressor is driven, no? Why would 10PSI in a blower application be different than 10PSI in a turbo application? Can you break it into baby steps for me? Gracias. Below are pics of the 208 turbo install courtesy of another thread, just for reference.

    I hate hacking irreplaceable parts, so that's why I'm leaning away from the EFI. I did see these nifty throttle body injectors, but that's a whole other mess (and a lot more $$)!

    I've been reading a technical manual on the K-jet (with lambda) this week and understand the limitations of the design, and so I see where Steve and others have concerns about fuel flow. Unless we're changing the fuel system completely, that's going to be the chokepoint.

    I noticed that the turbos/superchargers listed on this site are all pretty much 308s. Has anyone done a 328 specifically? The reason I ask is that the Norwood Performance site made a mention that they found the head studs in the 328 to be lacking, and I thought it curious that they limited it to just the single model.

    Thanks again to everyone, I really appreciate the feedback. Please keep it coming.
     
  23. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
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    baby steps..... lol you are not bieng dense, i was running LATE for work and did the short form of the gospel. if you want 10 psi numbers, you are going to have to do into the motor anyway, most small superchargers wont require going into the engine, i wonder if you could mod a 208 turbo intake to help with the set up.....??? yes boost is boost , but a turbo runs off the exhaust gasses and equires much plumbing and creates lots of heat in the engine bay. a blower is more compact and will not require tons of mods and fabbed parts. a old pontiac 400 cube engine with 8.1:1 compression and 7psi boost max was tons of fun. stock engine with ancient cast pistons. pure junk when compared with the money ferrari parts cost. my angle was a small bolt on blower with minimum fabrication required, but still safe to drive in traffic. turbo cars make ALOT of heat and are not happy in traffic without water injection ect. you can add the super aluminum radiators and all the oil cooler/ engine compartment fans ect. they run hot and dont like traffic..... UNLESS you get a whole system designed to work in harmony as a package deal like a Norwood turbo ect. i deduced from the context that you did not want to spend $12k on this deal. i think a blower would be cheaper and less hassel. just my non fcar owner opionion, just trying to help. sorry if i caused any confusion. michael
     
  24. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    On a us 308 QV stock internals (8.6CR), 10 psi from an eaton roots type blower works on east coast 93 octane, on west coast 91 I would think 8 psi would be it. Timing set at 25 degrees. 304 hp

    Same engine with a screw type blower and a big intercooler at 22 psi with timing at 20 degrees on 93 octane works. I would not recomend any blower that is not positive dispacement, type have very very unflat boost vs rpm curves, much worse than a turbo. A screw type blower is as efficient as more turbos, but delivers a much flatter boost curve.
     
  25. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    You can buy a set on runner to hack used from several placed T rutlands comes to mind, I'm sure they have them. I can't imagine they would cost you more than a couple hundred dollars. You just need the runners, not the top plenum.

    Throttle body injection systems (holley makes one) are cheaper the port type, but the fuel distribution is not as good. Also the stock manifold is designed to be dry so that will make the fuel distribution even worse. I would not go down that path.
     
  26. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

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    T Rutlands has a set of 3.2 runners - I just traded mine in for parts.
     
  27. anotherguy

    anotherguy F1 Rookie

    Feb 22, 2004
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    A couple things real quick to clear up a few statements that have been made. While it is possible for a supercharger to produce more power than at an equivalent boost level, one must remember that a supercharger will consume engine power to spin the impeller, and we are not talking about a small amount of power (the rough percentage escapes me at the moment).

    For this reason I have always favored turbos to a supercharger, despite the increased complexity of a turbo system(especially a custom application where you will have no point of reference for questions if you are doing the install itself.)

    As far as internal engine mods, etc. go, you would not be required to change cams, have headwork down, get new pistons etc with either a glower or turbos. A different cam grind can yield dramatic power increases in most cars when using forced induction as the intake characteristics change dramaticaly when you are suddenly in a positive pressure situation instead of a vacuum.

    You would be well served to spend some time talking to Norwood as they have slapped(severe understatement, they do very good work) turbo's onto a wide variety of Ferrari's.

    In regard to the head studs being a weak point, I would be suprised if this would become a significant problem with 5-7#'s of boost, but they would know better than I would in regard to that specific engine. Typically, head studs do not become a big problem until you start increasing boost to the point where the cylinder pressure is insanely high. When this happens it is indeed possible that the cylinder heads will actually begin to warp and lift off of the block. As this occurs the stress on the studs becomes quite severe and can result in the stud snapping.

    All that said, read everything you can. Search for books on custom turbo systems and learn the dynamics involved. Try and figure out what your end goal is power wise and then determine what it will take to get you there. This will give you an idea if you really want to make all of the modifications neccesary to the vehicle to complete this project and also if it is really worth the money to you.
     
  28. Cooly0

    Cooly0 Karting

    Nov 2, 2003
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    How much would a Blower Setup Cost in your opinions, I am seriously considering doing this to my 308.




     

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