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Help! Stuck with brake line removal / installation -- 308

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Mike328, Jan 7, 2004.

  1. Mike328

    Mike328 F1 Rookie

    Oct 19, 2002
    2,655
    Boulder, CO
    Full Name:
    Mike
    I need some help with how to remove the existing brake lines on my car... I've studied it, and my novice-ness is showing here, but I can't seem to figure things out.

    It appears that brake lines have the threaded fittings (threaded inside and out--the inside is where the hydraulic s-shaped hard-line threads into). Ok. The fittings appear to be FIXED with the line--they don't rotate independently of the line.

    OK, so how do you remove them then? Why is there a hex-head on the brake line fitting if it's not intended to be turned? I can't just turn this 5 turns without seriosuly warping/twisting the brake line.

    OK. So there's something else. The brake line fitting threads into, say a 20mm hex nut that fixes the line firmly against this mounting bracket (part of the car).

    Thing is, I can't rotate this nut either, because the mounting bracket is actually fabricated to BEND over two of the six sides of this nut. Not only can I not get to it, but it appears that the nut won't even rotate within this. I'm guessing this is a safety feature. Good, OK.

    So then you see where I'm stuck. One option is to cut the brake line, and then it'll rotate real good. But I don't want to do that, and besides, that doesn't deal with the problem of getting the new lines back on...

    Would appreciate any inisight to get this moving along again.

    FYI, installing stainless steel brake lines purchased from orme brothers, www.ormebros.com.


    Thanks,

    --Mike
     
  2. Diablo

    Diablo Formula Junior

    Mike,

    The only thing I could say is that you will have to try and heat the outer threaded part up and rotate the line. most likely you have got a corrosion problem.

    If anything, take it to a shop for them to change the lines before you mangle the thing up and it costs you more money.

    Good luck
     
  3. bpcurtis

    bpcurtis Rookie

    Nov 5, 2003
    19
    Dickinson, TX
    Full Name:
    Burnell Curtis
    Mike, you just think that the small fitting is fixed to the line. It is not, it is just rusted on. Also, the large part has a slip of metal bent around it. Bend it back so you can get a wrench on it. If you are replacing the rubber brake lines, then cut them. Now you can hold the small fitting (I suggest flare nut wrenches) and turn the large one. After you remove it, then work with penatrating oil to free the small fitting. If you can get it out of the car by removing it from the other end, then use a propane torch and heat it until it is red. The rust will then break lose.

    Good luck.

     
  4. Mike328

    Mike328 F1 Rookie

    Oct 19, 2002
    2,655
    Boulder, CO
    Full Name:
    Mike
    Diablo,

    Thanks for the information.

    There is no corrosion problem; I now have everything loose and rotating freely.

    There is no need for the car to go to the shop. I appreciate your warm concern to not mangle up the car but there's a line between careful progress and learning and mucking things up. I'm trying to walk that line :).

    I've taken a second look at the parts manual. There is a "Security tab" which has metal edges bent over the 20mm (or so) nut to prevent it from turning against the outer edge of the brake line. The nut is turning freely until it comes to a stop against the security tab (whose edges cover two of the six faces of the nut and prevent it from rotating more than 20 degrees or so).

    Also, the whole bracket that the brake line mounts to is secured to the chassis via two bolts. I don't see why this would need to come off, though.

    One last note re: corrosion. Yeah, things are old--they haven't been touched since 1977. But, several applications of penetrant and some tapping to loosen things up changed that. I don't believe rust and/or corrosion will be a problem with my particular car...
     
  5. Mike328

    Mike328 F1 Rookie

    Oct 19, 2002
    2,655
    Boulder, CO
    Full Name:
    Mike
    bpcurtis, thanks for the information! I think a little more info to you from my end will get things resolved.

    I've recently replaced the calipers. The small fitting--that goes inside the line--is in fact loose and rotating.

    Everything is loose now.

    Are you saying that the large 20mm nut (NOT part of the brake line!), that's blocked by the "security" bracket around it, can be loosened if I actually bend back the tabs of the security brakcet? Are those tabs designed to bend back like that? If so, then that solves the problem, of course...

    BTW, I've got a full set of metric flare wrenches (a must for this car!) 9mm to 21mm (no 20mm) that I've been using for this job.
     
  6. Mike328

    Mike328 F1 Rookie

    Oct 19, 2002
    2,655
    Boulder, CO
    Full Name:
    Mike
    OK. I got it. There are two things you have to do. Note that so far, I've only done the front left and rear left OUTSIDE connections--I'm still stuck with the inside connections (much harder to get to).


    ** Bend back the tabs on the safety bracket
    ** Make sure the hydraulic hard line has been broken "loose" out of the brake line and can begin to rotate out (counterclockwise) of the brake line.
    ** Make sure everything is sprayed well with penetrant.

    There are two ways to get things loose.
    1. Loosen the brake hose fitting with a 17mm flare wrench
    2. Loosen the nut that goes around the outer brake line fitting that that attaches the line to the bracket. Use a 23/24mm wrench. I ended up using an adjustable wrench for this.

    I used #1 on the rear, and #2 on the front to finally get things cracked.
     
  7. yelcab

    yelcab F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    9,059
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    I took my rear brake lines off without that much problem. I did have the benefit of ... having the engine totally out of the car so there was plenty of room to move around.
     
  8. Mike328

    Mike328 F1 Rookie

    Oct 19, 2002
    2,655
    Boulder, CO
    Full Name:
    Mike
    :) Yes, that would certainly make things easier!
     
  9. rjdavatar

    rjdavatar Rookie

    Nov 17, 2003
    36
    Zurich, Switzerland
    I recently bought a set of brake hoses for '85 308QV from Superformance.
    They supplied a hose with terminations of the kind shown in the upper part
    of my attached diagram. In this kind, the end of the hose is clamped to the chassis bracket by a nut (not supplied), which can be seen in the 1978 USA 308 parts catalogue.

    On inspection, I find that my QV has the lower arrangement. ie, the existing
    hose has a termination that has a high unthreaded shoulder, and the hose is
    jammed against the chassis bracket by a retaining plate that wedges against the raised shoulder.

    is my interpretation of these arrangements correct?
    Mine is a european (swiss) QV. Are there differences between the european and US 308s with respect to the brake hoses?

    What is your recommendation: fit the hoses of the existing kind (shoulder and wedge), or use the nut clamped version?

    thanks, rjdavatar
     
  10. rjdavatar

    rjdavatar Rookie

    Nov 17, 2003
    36
    Zurich, Switzerland
    sorry,
    previous diagram was wrong, the flare should of course be on the hose side
    of the internal thread. Here is a better version.
     
  11. Mike328

    Mike328 F1 Rookie

    Oct 19, 2002
    2,655
    Boulder, CO
    Full Name:
    Mike
    I've done a fair amount of research on this, and from reading past threads (search the OLD FerrariChat archives for BRAKE and LINE in the SUBJECT line), some have clips and some have the old 308 style as you list below.

    I don't have any experience with your clip-style setup as you note below, but I've read some posts in some threads (that come up in the search below) where people have dealt with the different styles.

    That said, though it would seem strange, it is my sneaking suspiscion that in this area, US and Euro cars have different setups..

    Sorry that I'm not much help here... Maybe a search will be more useful.
     

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