Hemmings says TR has nowhere to go but up!

Comparing a 360 to a TR is apples to oranges. 8 vs 12 cylinder. Jaw dropping unique looks vs ordinary nothing special looks. Sorry, the360 doesnt even excite me

 

took the 512tr out for a spin today....gets looks like no other 21 year old car ! runs well, fast, has loads of presence, comfortable, did i mention fast? i have had the 512tr dialed up to 320km indicated on the speedo, and it was on rails (lots of wind noise tho).

maybe they will go up some day. i am not holding my breath. i am just driving.


the bbi on the other hand is 9 years older but feels 30 years older in design and execution. not worse, just different. i love it too. have had mine up to about 260km on the clock, and it was fun, but it didnt feel poised like the 512tr. will bb's finally rise in defiance of the inexplicable dino?? who knows. it should. it would be logical. but the collector car market is not logical, so we may all be much older before we see this happen. so drive it.

when i want to cruise in 'vintage' style, i take the bb, when i want to get looks or need to take my wife on a longer trip, then the 512tr is often the choice (especially since i have the full luggage set, which is mostly filled with her stuff !)

 

And 360's are as common as lawn mowers. The TR is un-to itself when it comes to looks and its place in automotive history. In time I believe it will be revered by collectors. Like any true classic.....as the numbers thin the desire increase. That is simply a matter of time.

 

I hear what you're saying, but...

To the non-hardcore, the cost vs. performance-numbers IS a deciding factor in where to spend $60-$70K. I've seen FAR MORE tired TRs out there than I've seen tired 360s. If I want a runaround Ferrari and I don't want a long, protracted chase for a NICE one for my money, I'm going to go-after a newer model than an older model. Too many TRs out there that need 'everything'. Show me a guy doing a complete, ground-up restoration on a TR 'today', using 'today's parts inventories, and I'll show you a guy who can't add. FerrParts broke up one or two TRs just a couple of years ago that RAN....and weren't crashed. They were even Don Johnson colors - white on beige/white. Where was the nostalgia then?

Lawn mowers get exercise every saturday - lawn ornaments just 'sit'. I don't make the rules....

 

Few things you are missing in your analysis.

The 360 in maintenance with those electronics in 25 yrs will be a nut cracker for sure.

Overall costs on the Testarossa will be a walk in the park compared to the newer stuff.

Thinning of the heard is evident with many ferrari's, how many Dino's and Daytona's do you think are left of the original build ? It's par the course.

Odds are very good that I will eventually restore my single mirror when time comes, I've had it for 13 yrs now and 62,000 Kms later, it's the longest car I've owned. Couple it with my son loves the car now , it's part of the family ( so to speak). You are correct , people like me are beyond rare, but if everyone ditches these cars, just makes it much better for those of us that owe one of only half that are left

I say crush them !

 

The above statement is why it will be a lawn mower in relation to the TR. When the cost of the technology exceeds the value of the car........parts baby!!!!!

As for crushing them.......like beer cans. Makes mine one of the few and with that I say ......pass the Cubans, I feel a worthy cigar will be in order!!!

And if it is a twin mirror.......I say bring the whole box !

 

That TR from the article is my old car. Dr. V8 bought it and put some good money into it to get it right.

I miss her like crazy... and she was nothing but mean to me.

 

Did you talk nice to her? I always tell mine how pretty she is!!!!

 

I tried, but she was pissed that she was left sitting in a show room for the last 7yrs before I got her

 

Typical women!!!

 

As you and I both know, this is never just enough - it always boils down to the cheese

 

Indeed. Cash is king......in a women's eye.

 

I keep bringing-up the 'electronics issue', WRT new-car service, and current-owners assure me that technology will advance to a point where the home DIY mechanic will easily be able to replicate any CPU-driven automotive black-box made.....copy/re-host the firmware, match the interfaces, and away you go. Tech will provide a lifetime availability of solutions that no new car will be sidelined while waiting for a replacement. Costs will go DOWN, not up, for these Engine Management computers, ECUs, dashboard displays, etc. Ferraris will be cheaper to service.......I'd LIKE to believe that, but right now I don't. We'll see.

Ferrari has shown-interest in reducing service costs for preventative maintenance in their new machines, I think that trend will continue - new buyers will want Honda/Mercedes reliability in these cars, or they will take their money elsewhere. The days of people 'accepting' a $15K-$30K service bill for a 12-cylinder engine are numbered. Parts prices are also going 'nowhere but UP'. The labor pool of skilled mechanics who CAN work on these cars without computer-assisted diagnostics or overcharging you for their learning curve is also getting smaller....

Trouble is, many 'hard' wear-items in any high-RPM drivetrain are going to be an issue for driven cars, including TRs, right-now. Cylinder liners. Heads, valves, bearings, cranks, Bosch FI parts, Magnetti Marelli parts.....how many of the origninal OEM goodies are NLA? When existing parts are gone, who will make more? Ferrari decides how-long they're going to keep stuff in available stock - after that, you're fabricating your own. Used parts for certain applications will work, but for others, you need 'new'.

 

Good day Michael,

I would ask how many of these "tech" gurus actually design (hardware, software, firmware), manufacture, reverse engineer, etc complicated electronic systems? I say this, as I do all of the above as my career and I see it as getting worse as time marches on. Indeed, the physical cost of the electrical components has and will continue to fall, but there are a whole multitude of other factors that are and will continue to increase (i.e. increased design effort, development tool cost, test apparatus cost, EMI/EMC scanning, etc).

Another element these "gurus" are not considering are the numerous sensors needed for the newer cars. Many of these sensors are not standard off the shelf sensors, but are either specifically made for a particular spec or are packaged/characterized uniquely for the application and/or manufacturer. Microprocessors, memory, etc are almost generic in function, but the sensor infrastructure is not except, of course, for the basic ones like O2 sensors, etc.

There are other items to bring up as well, but I think I made my point. Perhaps I will be proven wrong, but given my current exposure technology I do not think I am too far off.

Cheers,

Sam

 

Not sure - its a good topic of conversation, which will become more frequent as smart folks 'get involved' and start looking-into DIY manufacturing of NLA Ferrari parts. I have some friends looking-into the tech used in Marelli Digiplexes (NOS units are approaching $1,400 each IF YOU CAN FIND ONE). When these parts start climbing in price, there will be economic motivation for any crafty computer programmer to 'reverse-engineer' some of these devices. A good Ferrari friend of mine is an engineer at a tech business that manufactures various temp sensors - he's looking at how to remanufacture expensive thermocouples for Ferrari exhaust systems much-cheaper. Maybe he gets there, maybe he gets frustrated and quits if there isn't a viable market. I've warned quite a few folks when looking for 308 parts from the same era that this stuff was disappearing rapidly and that folks should stock-up, and not put-off that engine service or resto projects. Even Bosch is deciding to discontinue certain Jetronic components that are Ferrari-specific. People were telling me that Bosch will "make stuff forever".....no they won't. When certain FI components stop working, it could be years before someone reverse-engineers the WHOLE SYSTEM so something will work - not many people are keeping records of system component specifications......and Ferrari doesn't publish this stuff very well.

 

The question you have to ask yourself is what is the cost of a Daytona engine to rebuild ? A Dino engine ?

If history has shown us anything, it's prices continue to increase, and Ferrari is a respected brand with an image of excellence.

Prices for computer pieces may go down in price , but an engine rebuild is still an engine rebuild. The new cars will have both these issues, electronics + mechanical.

Do you really thing the roof mechanism on the 575sa will go below 20k in20 years when it has to be replaced ? Do your really think the f1 rebuild on f430 scud will be less in 20 yrs ? I suspect no.

What I predict will happen, the high production number of these cars will create some good spare parts for good conditioned and cared for cars.

The old school cars like a bb, Testarossa , Dino will not only be less expensive to operate , but more fun on city/hwy roads as the cars really don't need to go that fast to have a true fun experience.

The new cars really need to ring up at 200kms an hour, or hammer out of 1st gear to really enjoy them...they are just that good and refined.

Time will tell, but we can see the value curve in the new cars almost immediate now,mas opposed to 20 yrs ago.

Time will tell

Ps...don't forget that Ferrari is doing the classic program now , parts will be available for old cars now...Ferrari see an pop to make money on that now.

 

The volume of new cars produced would indicate making parts for them is a more attractive proposition than for some older cars.

For 308's and Boxers the only hard bits is the FI system Currently new parts are available, and there is good talent to refurb the bits that are not. Also as the porche people have been doing for yaers you can convert a FI system to efi with off the shelf companants, plus you get better performance. Most of us have already abandoned the ferrari ignition system for msd or some other off the shelf unit.

Now can someone program a 2020 computer to run all the systems on a 430?The tranny the suspemsion How about a 458?. I guess if there is enough demand then someone somewhere will do the programming. Maybe by then cambodia will have cheap programers.

For sure though between now and then moderns will fall into a malaise of being too expensive to run, and so theor prices will drop further. Are we far away from the 50K 360?

But then lets not forget that the 50k tr is really goig to need a 50K going through to get fully sorted too.

So running costs lead to attrition. Time and attrition make older cars more rare and more appreciated and the the cycle spirals up. I think trs have awhile to go to get there, and 360's and 430's are going to sink for a while. Of course the 430 with its relative simplicity and chain driven cams may well hold its value better than others, especialy in a stick.

Here is a question, how low can a 456 go, there were a lot produced and a 456 can eat 10-20k in any given year pretty easily.

 

Good day Michael,

Quite honestly the old Digiplex's are simple in comparison to the new systems... and the newer cars have a lot more of these subsystems distributed throughout the car... ignition, suspension, transmission, braking system... Remember that a few of these subsystems have to work together to have a functioning car and so one would need to reverse engineer a number of them as well as the communication protocol used (which may be standard, but even with "standards" some manufacturers add their own "flavor" to the sauce as it were... or it might even be encrypted...). With all that being said I am not saying that it is not possible, it is just that it would be a lot of work...and so it would not be inexpensive. For some current owners to say that they are confident that someone or some firm outside of Ferrari et all, etc will make whatever to keep their cars operational is naive in my opinion. Perhaps some of the current players will release info/technology to the public when they no longer make the items? Who knows, but looking at history this has not been the case, but it is possible.

As for some of the basic sensors... certainly these can be replicated and/or newer ones substituted. But what about some specialty sensors or ones that integrated multiple sensors in one device? Can you imagine characterizing and then tailoring substitute sensors...

Perhaps I am in too deep and I look too much at the details, but to me thinking about all of the newer car electronics and their infrastructure makes me shudder... and also appreciate the old school approach

Cheers,

Sam

 

Have any of you gentlemen ever considered "open resource" companies? When the cost of OEM exceeds a certain value level, companies like AEM, Megasquirt & others offer viable alternatives that don't break the bank and provide current level technology for a modest price. Even with today's Ferrari's.....it is an alternative that can be used to maintain current cars.

 

Good day,

I believe these are more of a replacement for the ignition system, etc which can be somewhat generic in concept... What about the F1 transmission computer and the numerous others? Do all manufacturers use the same basic controllers and/or mechanisms for their paddle shift cars? I do not now, however, over time perhaps OS type projects may pop up for these other subsystems too. My point is that there is no guarantee that this will occur and for some to not be at least a bit concerned I believe is somewhat risky/naive.

Cheers,

Sam

 

It does seem like prototyping and "computerized" machines/lathes are getting cheaper and more powerful. There is a thread now in the pelican forum where a UK company is making Fuchs 7R replicas and we are talking UK production and not huge volumes.

911R Deep 7 Wheel by Group 4 Wheels - Pelican Parts Technical BBS

The number of 911's that benefit from these are much less than the production of TR's, it is just a matter of enough people wanting a given product. Getting together in the forums or internet groups make it more easy to do "group projects", I think it should be possible to keep the classics rolling.

Btw, group 4 make wheels for F-cars as well, it is not just for the Porsche crowd.
Group 4 Wheels - Reviving historic rally, road and track motorsport wheels

 

Yeah, that's my car. Here's the full article.

More is More | Hemmings Motor News

 

Honestly I think the TR missed its chance. The apocalyptic economy has effectively wiped out any chance of gen X (my generation - the "TR generation") having enough wealth, in sufficiently large numbers, to become "monied collectors"

I drive an E92 M3 which in *theory* is a car of similar cost to a TR, but the reality is a world away. A TR is a ridiculous $75k toy that could require five figure maintenance at any moment, yet can't really be used for anything. You have to be pretty flush for that kind of thing and not that many late 30's to late 40's are all that flush. Sure you have whales at the top end, but that's not enough to drive a market considering there are lots of these cars.

The reason I dont think this is likely to change is that it's really too late at this stage for Gen Xers, and the younger kids have an entirely different value system. The TR styling really is anachronistic and polarizing. IF the economy heals and creates a renaissance of opportunity, these new wealthy are more likely to desire an autonomous Tesla than a V12 monster from the 80s. It just is what it is.

Most of the "children of the 80s" have had 90% of their wealth eradicated in the past 6 years and have seen their salaries stagnant for a decade.

At the same time, car manufacturers are giving you cost effective leases on cars that, *objectively*, eradicate 80s supercar performance, with perfect reliability and no maintenance cost, and look modern with all of the modern gadgets. On top of that they are completely practical. Sure *subjectively* they lack, but "subjective" is largely a luxury in the BEST of times. Classic car enthusiasm is always a bit of a niche and the majority of people, in any era, tend to prefer what's current.

Porsche makes it hard too... The endless generations of 911 are just so much cheaper to own and run, and are also subjectively awesome in their own way, and on top of that are daily driver practical. They're a pretty good "budget alternative" to scratch the itch if one wants "old school". Each time over the years Ive even come *close* to considering a Ferrari I've ended up with a 911 or an NSX (5 of those combined over the years). I've just never felt that any Ferrari could fit into either my budget or my lifestyle and I've found thats true of *all* of my enthusiast friends despite having done *fairly* well (at least by the depressing standards we're stuck with today).

 

Interesting perspective. I do think there is some truth to that. When we were kids cars represented the ultimate freedom, and a Ferrari was the ultimate car. It is natural to aspire toward what we dreamed about in our youth.
I think that for subsequent generations, the car has become less important. That sense of freedom it created replaced by other devices (smart phones, internet, etc.). I think it's almost to the point today that receiving a first phone is a bigger deal than the first car. Sad in a way, but everything changes. I'm sure there we people that lamented to decline of the horse when it was replaced with soulless automobiles too.