Here's a pic of me pulling the engine out of my 612 yesterday! | Page 11 | FerrariChat

Here's a pic of me pulling the engine out of my 612 yesterday!

Discussion in '612/599' started by trygve11, Jul 4, 2014.

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  1. LightGuy

    LightGuy Four Time F1 World Champ
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    308/328: My "New" Nick's Forza Ferrari 4.0L - Just Arrived!

    612/599: Here's a pic of me pulling the engine out of my 612 yesterday!
     
  2. Piper

    Piper Two Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 6, 2010
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    Yeah, I nominated it just before he started the engine. I believed :)
     
  3. cmparrenzo

    cmparrenzo F1 Rookie

    Mar 3, 2002
    2,687
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    Chris Parr
    Welcome to the Kansas City Ferrari community, I sent you a private message, looking forward to meeting you and seeing your 612!

    Chris Parr
    President
    Ferrari Club of America
    Kansas City Chapter

    599 GTB
    246 GT Dino
     
  4. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    19,949
    The Cold North
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    Tom
    Unfortunately it seems to be misfiring..a shorted o2 heater circuit will not get hot enough to overheat to the point of causing a fire.

    Nice job getting her running, now it's time to sort out the bugs!!
     
  5. trygve11

    trygve11 Formula Junior
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    Aug 20, 2008
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    Jason Hagen
    Yes. I will sort a few things out. Not sure about misfiring or not. It idled perfectly. There was one question when putting on the top plenum as the two #3 cylinder fuel injector connectors ended up on one side and I had to route one back over to the other. I checked as well as I could as to whether I got the right one back but perhaps I screwed it up. I will pin it out to the ECU to be sure and will remedy if needed.

    Also, the O2 sensor got red hot. The engine temp was fine and the coolant system fully bled so it didn't overheat. The only questions I left with were is the tappet noise typical (and does it just need more time to prime). The tappet noise seems only to start once it starts getting warmed up. Is this typical of the V12 engines?

    Also, the middle resonator pipe on the right side was too close to the heat shield (as I don't have the rear boxes on to keep it all aligned. As such, not sure if the O2 sensor caused the heat shield burn or the box. Either way, it will be solved. New O2 sensor on the way. Will pin out heater circuit to ECU to ensure no shorts in wiring as well.

    I am stuck now with only the weekends to screw around with her as I just started a new job in Chicago and am traveling as I write. Plan it to have this car 100% sorted and road ready for March! So, frequency of new picture posts will go down to weekly...

    The white smoke is 100% gone. It was just all the assembly lube.

    Any other thoughts or tips?

    Thanks!
     
  6. trygve11

    trygve11 Formula Junior
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    Hi Chris, I look forward to meeting you and bringing the car to a KC event when it is completed! I just met the owners over at KC trends and they were encouraging me to get involved in the club. See you soon I hope!

    - Jason
     
  7. Drive550PFB

    Drive550PFB Two Time F1 World Champ

    This is easily my favorite thread of the summer.

    Thanks for keeping us all up to date. Great Project.
     
  8. f308gtsi

    f308gtsi Rookie

    Dec 23, 2007
    16
    United States
    This is a great thread and a great story. Here's to you sorting it all out to bring a Scaglietti back to life!
     
  9. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    May 10, 2006
    17,848
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    Great thread. Just went through it all. I saw you used a flex hone to deglaze the liner walls. They are fine to use on iron or nikasil but make for certain to take your time breaking in the rings, especially when they are used for nikasil!
     
  10. 166&456

    166&456 Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2010
    1,723
    Amsterdam
    It does seem to be misfiring. Could be fouled plugs or (more likely) switched wiring.
    It would also account for some of the smoke.
    And I agree, a shorted heater does not make a sensor or cat glow red hot. A misfire can do that, however, by the afterburning in the exhaust. Which is why I would seriously check the ignition wiring (and sequence!) on the engine side that you had the problem.
    Not to worry, just a glitch in the recommissioning process.
     
  11. Jakster

    Jakster Rookie

    May 18, 2011
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    Jake
    Great thread, really enjoyed seeing that formerly hydrolocked V12 come (back) to life!
     
  12. southnc

    southnc Formula 3

    Dec 25, 2013
    1,765
    Charlotte, NC
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    Adam
    Congrats on the successful 612 engine start-up.

    Well done!
     
  13. trygve11

    trygve11 Formula Junior
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    Aug 20, 2008
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    Thanks all for your support! As for the comments above, I will look rigorously at these items. I expect to pin out the potential switched #3 injector leads back to the ECU. If they were swapped, I will remedy.

    I was pretty sure I got the coil packs right but who knows. I can pin these out too while I have the Right Hand Side ECU wiring exposed.

    I will say that the cat never got red, it was just the bib of the O2 sensor and the O2 sensor itself. And it also threw a P2234 code and another P code (more generic) specific to the heater element on Bank 1 Sensor 2. As such, the heater appeared to be in a complete short to ground and thus heats up continuously until it gets red hot.

    I am not sure the the ignition of the heat shield came from this O2 sensor or from the mid-pipe box which my assistance failed to align properly and was positioned very close to the heat shield (which seems quite frankly quite wimpy and shouldn't burn due to exhaust system contact I would think.

    The pin-outs on the coils and the injectors should go pretty quickly I suspect. When I get back to KC this weekend, I will get in and do the checks and install the new O2 sensor. I hope to report back before disappearing for a week for a family get away.

    Cheers all! Can't way to drive this machine. The winter will allow me to perfect it and progressing get it deployed for Spring driving!
     
  14. GaryK

    GaryK Karting

    Aug 23, 2011
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    California
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    Gary

    Where did you get the "Sticky Rubber Coating". Is it available as a rattle can?

    Gary
     
  15. r0sco

    r0sco Karting
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    Jan 21, 2011
    114
    Melbourne
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    Ross
    Have just read this thread from start to finish. Jason - you are my hero. Thanks, well done, and good luck with the remaining gremlins. The startup vid did sound a bit rough - my 612 idles very smoothly. You have reinforced my resolve never to drive mine in bad weather!!
     
  16. trygve11

    trygve11 Formula Junior
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    Thank you and thanks to everyone for their interests!
     
  17. trygve11

    trygve11 Formula Junior
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    A few updates...

    First answering one question, yes there is a rattle can of the black stuff that can be used to fix sticky parts once the stickiness is cleaned off. I will have to look at what it is called and report back.

    Next, the bigger updates. YES, there is definitely something wrong with the way the engine is running. A misfire or multiple. It may actually be responsible for the hot cats/oxygen sensor... read on...

    I pulled the exhaust pipes this weekend, leaving only the headers. Then started up the car on the lift. I got under the car and felt the exhaust from both the driver's bank headers and the passenger bank headers. MAJOR difference between the two. The driver's bank felt like it had 2X the flow and the exhaust was very warm (as expected). The passenger bank had much less flow and you could actually feel cold pulses. So, some cylinders not firing.

    I checked all 12 injectors for pulse and flow. All good. Then I verified ignition coils in right spots. All good. Then checked two of the six cylinders (so far) for compression and spark. All good. I will check the other four.

    BUT, please remember. My floor areas, under the driver's and passenger's feet did see some water entry during the "event" which disabled this car in the first place. I replaced two modules that showed issues already. The roof control module and the wiper module.

    The ECUs on the car are very well sealed units. A couple months ago I opened up the driver's one to see if any water got in and it looked great. I did not check the passenger bank ECU.

    So, I think I may have an ECU issue. I plan to swap ECUs (after verifying that they are identical which I think they are) and see if the issue follows the ECU. If so, well I will buy a new ECU or have mine repaired.

    Any other thoughts or ideas guys? Only other thought is bad cats on the passenger side but this seems unlikely. I'd prefer not to pull those if I don't have to. The exhaust from that side did have some water in it when I first disassembled the car but I doubt that it ruined that cats. Thoughts?

    In the meantime, I will also be massively reinforcing my heat shields so as not to ever have to be concerned about anything getting to hot from the exhaust!
     
  18. cls

    cls Formula 3

    Jun 12, 2007
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    Alsa, Killer Cans, Soft Feel

    Alsa Corp | Killer Cans : Price
     
  19. 166&456

    166&456 Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2010
    1,723
    Amsterdam
    #269 166&456, Oct 20, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2014
    A bad cat will not cause a misfire. Perhaps a `slow down`warning by a bad ecu or sensor might, although I would expect that to shut at least fuel supply down.
    You say you checked the injectors for pulse and flow, what do you mean, are they actuated (by the ECU) or did you check it manually by applying voltage to the injectors yourself?

    You mentioned some cold pulses, I read that as some hot and some cold pulses?

    Not sure whether the ECUs are changeable left and right, an expert on these will know.

    I don't believe that a heater in the O2 sensor can cause so much heat for an exhaust to glow red hot. If it were shorted, and the circuit unfused, it would be the wiring glowing red hot and not the sensor or bung. Why? Those heaters are normally drawing 2-4 amps or so, and the wiring not thick enough to carry enough current to glow anything besides the wiring itself.

    No, I bet it will be a fused circuit and probably at 10 amps or thereabout. Hence I am convinced it must have been afterburning of fuel in the exhaust.
    Of course it is possible there is something wrong with the heater (or circuit) of the sensor on that side. For example, corroded to the point of the heater not working. Something is diagnosed by the computer - it hints something is wrong with it but it does not say what.

    So I would attend to that sensor later and first focus on why it doesn't (seem to) fire on that bank.
    I would look to ignition or ignition sequence. The sequence wrong seems easy to do with all the individual connectors, or perhaps there was a mixup with the pickups in the flywheel housing (although I doubt it would have run at all then)? A water damaged ECU is a possibility (or broken wiring because of moisture...), which would be unfortunate but not to be ruled out. I would first look at wiring sequence on ALL connectors to the motor, and then whether the coils and injectors receive their electrical drive on that side. Pull the fuel pump relay for that bank while testing.

    Good luck with the diagnosis.
     
  20. trygve11

    trygve11 Formula Junior
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    Well, really bad news to report. Swapped the ECU's and no change.

    Started compression and spark checks on the suspect bank and...

    I have a bad cylinder. Zero compression on cylinder number 6. I have to do the leakdown but it smells like my machinist that did the head screwed it up. I will confirm in a couple of weeks with a leakdown as I leave for the Dominican Republic tomorrow for vacation with the family for what is now going to be a major drinking event for me!

    The million dollar question now is can I swap the head off and on (if the lower end of the motor is confirmed good) with the engine in the car? I go the heads off that way but can I get it back on? I think I will try.

    I plan to leakdown that cylinder to confirm source of air loss. If head, I will then compression check the good bank (just to be sure) and then pull the suspect head with the engine in the car and find a good machinist to get the work done this time.

    Ugh. Looks like a winter project now!
     
  21. ar4me

    ar4me F1 Rookie
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    Apr 4, 2010
    3,114
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    Sorry to hear of the misfortunes Jason. We will cross our fingers for a good lower end and hope it is head related, "only". Best of luck getting it sorted over the winter - we will be here supporting you and following your efforts.

    Was that the same cylinder that was damaged from the hydro-lock?
     
  22. MARMIST

    MARMIST Formula 3

    Jul 1, 2014
    1,338
    sorry to hear about the problems but at least this confirms me I was not hearing things when I thought there was something wrong the way the engine was sounding the first time u turned it on
     
  23. HORNETDRIVER

    HORNETDRIVER Karting

    Jul 29, 2013
    124
    TX
    Awww, man, that blows.

    Thanks for all the updates on your progress and good luck. Keep the updates coming!
     
  24. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Aug 3, 2002
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    I'm a little late to the party here, but is there any chance you can share the serial number of this particular car - and, if at all possible, the engine number as well?
     
  25. trygve11

    trygve11 Formula Junior
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    Aug 20, 2008
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    64921 is the build number. Either the machinist screwed up or I kissed a valve against the piston when tightening the cam sprockets. Will be a few weeks before I know. Either way it will get sorted and isn't the end of the world.
     

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