Here's a twist in thought process.........

I guess you can do whatever you want with your own car, but I would never come in here and promote 90K mile belt change intervals. This has been discussed so many times that its about moot, but the point is that the belts dont wear out, they SNAP! Maybe yours will let go on a hard pull to redline and youll find out just what kind of damage it can do. But somehow I doubt we would ever hear about it, as most of the people who break a belt dont mention that when they own the car. They may want to sell it someday and dont want the record. I guess everyone in the world dont like welded up heads for some reason.

 

Your car is one of those that I'll see on ebay serveral years from now looking like a piece of sheite.

Can you go ahead and tell us the vin number so that none of us will accidently buy your car?

 

You aren't replacing a timing "CHAIN" the 30K timing belt service is just that a belt. The main reason to change the belt is more from age and the low miles that are put on these cars so the belt sits with tension palced on one spot of the belt (stretching it possibly). And since a broken belt could possibly run into a 20K plus repair it is a gamble that many don't want to take

 

This certainly brings up the question: If someone did not do the timing belt change, why should it de-value the car if it did not break?

Ferrari's theory is: Maintaining the belt is less expensive than having valves and pistons collide.

My theory is: if the car has not yet bent the valves it is not too late to change the belts.

 

If you intend on keeping a Ferrari forever, then the maintence is not an issue, do what you want. If you wish to sell a Ferrari, you will need documented proof of a recent service or the market will hammer you. So if you are comfortable with skipping most services during your ownership, fine. Just be prepared to pay for the service prior to listing the car for sale or expect to receive 3x less than the service cost in sale price.

Assume a service costs $6000, a unserviced Ferrari might yield $18,000 less on the open. Many Ferrari sellers are willing to layout the $6000, as to not lose the $12,000 net on their sale. When a Ferrari has no service records people assume the worst, so your only potential buyers are people looking down market.

 

From what I've seen and read over the years, it is usually the tensioner bearing that fails, not the belt itself. But, when the bearing fails the belt then breaks. So, when you replace the tensioner bearing you should go ahead and replace the belts too as they cost very little to buy anyway.

 

Ferraris are not like other cars. The engines run at much higher RPMs on average so 30k miles on the engine has seen the cycles of a Honda engine with 60k, which is when I changed my Honda timing belt (for $850 BTW!).

Along with that, the tensioners are always suspect with age on Ferraris (the 3*8 series at least) because the belts take a sharp angle and the lateral pressure on them is a lot. They wear out.

And of course these are interference engines that are not cheap to rebuild, even as a DIY for the few here who can tackle that job. So some kind of belt maintainence just makes for common sense.

Ken

 

05F430F1,
Toyota recommends 60k belt change on the 3.4 V6.
I ignored that recommendation thinking, "Hey, it's a Toyota--it'll last forever."
It broke at 72k.
Just some food for thought.

 

FYI, a Honda S2000 redlines at 8200rpm and doesn't call for a timing belt change until 105,000 miles!

 

When you buy a Ferrari, you essentially marry into the culture of preventive maintenance; and divorce will be very messy and expensive!

 

Which is a tribute to Honda's technology improvements over the past 20 years or so since 3*8's were made. I'm sure you're not suggenting that since the S2000 can go 105k miles between belts, a 308 can too! *S*

Ken

 

I do belt replacements every 6 months. My dealer tells me it is the only way to be sure that the belts are safe...........

 

Porsche also reccomends adjusting the valves every 15k. That's not just a Ferrari thing, it's a mechanical lifter thing...

 

I agree with that fact that the Ferrari mechanics at the dealer ‘Sell’ us on maintenance. I brought my car in a few months back due to a noise that I suspected was a rear wheel bearing. Without even checking out the car thoroughly, they asked me when the last time I did the timing belts, I said 4.5 years (and I drive the car a LOT), and right away they diagnosed it as a tensioner bearing, and wanted to do a full major service. After I argued that the noise is only when driving, they finally agreed it was a rear wheel bearing after further investigation. But still insisted that I needed a major service. I brought the car to Dave Helms whom I trust, he concurred about the rear wheel bearing, but said my tensioner bearings and t-belt were fine. At any rate, the dealer used the scare tactic on the timing belt system failing and destroying my engine in the 308. I have been doing the timing belts every 6 years/30K miles without a problem, however i drive the car 4000 miles per year.

 

If, for argument's sake, we grant your premise, what do you think the 'proper' intervals are? What is the margin of safety the manufacturers build in? 10%? 20% 50%?

The more you think about it, the harder the question becomes to answer. Everyone will agree that the belts on a 308 don't explode at 30,001 miles, but what about 40k? 50? The failure rate on timing belts is dependent on many things, not least of which is engine design, the health of tensioners, problems in what it drives, engine heat, age, oil, etc, etc, etc.

When it comes down to it, the cost of not replacing the belts far outweighs the costs of replacing them.


On the subject valves and valve adjustments, I can't resist reposting this picture from Tom Yang's site. Ouch!
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

I don't necessarily buy into the whole maintenance schedule thing but service based on when things really need it. As for resale, people are more impressed with how you've taken care of it i.e. overall condition.

 

According to the owners manual on '94 348. Belts are to be inspected at 15K and 30K service. Belts replaced at 52.5k miles.

Who's selling 15k belt cahnges? The dealers!!

 

I’m with you 05F430F1 most of the way, however I see the frequent service habit being also customer driven.
I believe that a number of people who buy new Ferraris do so because they want the perceived image of the purchase rather than the mechanical object. You know, the “Hey, this isn’t a car, it’s a Ferrari!” sort of mindset. This group is aware of the company’s involvement in racing and, through T.V. or better yet hospitality suites, they know that Formula One cars break down all the time. As the machine this consumer is driving is, in his opinion, one step away from winning the Monaco G.P. he will believe that a Ferrari can’t possibly live without stunning maintenance bills; indeed Buick like reliability would be a disappointment for it would state that the car wasn’t right at the edge of the design envelope, it was more, well, more practical, more pedestrian.
I also - cruelly - suspect that having your Ferrari serviced can be the male counterpart of a woman being flattered by a favored sales lady at Nieman Marcus or Saks, in that it is a pleasant relationship based on spending buckets of cash. A Tubi exhaust is like a designer coat that has been held over, a new engine management chip is right up there with a black cocktail dress. In both instances the consumer is being flattered by someone in the trade, someone who has insider knowledge, someone who is close to the source. Someone important. In both cases the consumer wants to repeat the experience, whether or not the car needs an oil change or the shopper really needs a new handbag.
I have a third theory, one I have voiced in another thread. The dealer knows that the cars are always being brought in. He also knows that the time given by the factory to do recall work is always a fraction of what his mechanics take to actually do the job. He knows that if he follows the book he will lose money. The solution is not to examine his mechanic’s work too closely. If a car is badly serviced it will probably need the service intervals the manual recommends. I know that whenever my 360 went in for work, and I crawled about the car once I had it home, I always found lose electrical connections and missing bolts. I doubt my experience was unique.

If anyone reads this and choses to reply, please don’t flame me. I’m not saying anyone who has his car serviced at the recommended intervals is stupid, vain or gullible no, not at all. Perhaps he is a sober individual who likes to leave it to the experts when it comes to such matters. Good for him. At the end of the day there is only one reason for having a Ferrari - it gives the owner pleasure. If the pleasure comes from peace of mind that the car is receiving the best attention, or indeed is purely derived from dealing with the service department, well, that’s just fine with me. Go for it.

 

honda s2000s have a timing chain..just as god intended...[actually a gear train is best]

 

Which specific American muscle cars are you refering to which had mechanical valve train? I can only think of one or two, perhaps there are a couple more, otherwise virtually all American V-8 engines since the 50's had hydraulic lifters. And in regards to the 18K mile Ferrari with no service records, obviously the car should have the 15K service. Who here, in there right mind would pay top money for this car with no documented service? I highley doubt you would.
As far as dealer service and the mechanics they employ, I have witnessed first hand, on several occasions, of sabotage being performed. Clipped wires, cut belts, sliced hoses, cut drive axle boots, anything to make the car break down away from the shop and get it back in for more work. I do all my own work except particular machine shop jobs I have no obvious tooling for, and I dont let anyone touch my cars unless absolutely necessary.

 

Todd,

1. Dealers always increase requirements over factory maintenance. They wanted to change my Toyota's plugs at 60k miles. The car came with iridium plugs from the factory and the factory replacement interval is 120k. Also, they were going to put in nickel electrode plugs. DO NOT FOLLOW DEALER SERVICE SCHEDULES - FOLLOW ONLY FACTORY SERVICE SCHEDULES!!!

2. The recommended intervals are just that, recomendations. They are based on a milage that catches almost all of the cars prior to component failure. If you drive all out, i.e. track it, you may want to do more agressive maintenance, if you baby the car, you can get away with longer cycles.

3. Recent service helps the value of a car when selling because the potential buyer sees that the car is ready to go and doesn't have to factor in as much immediate service cost into his purchase.

Regards,

Art S.

PS. I'm pretty sure that the TomYang picture is from a 250 V-12

 

Hey 05F430F1 (that's easy to remember)...I agree with your point, though it is easy to take shots at it. The Ferrari mystique is always there which is kinda cool, but at the end of the day physics is physics and maintenance of a conglomeration of moving metals, fluids, and things has no connection to whether it is branded Ferrari or Ford Pinto. (yes I know the Ferrari valve train operates differently from many cars, so does my Ducati's) I think Ferrari knows that many of its clientele can afford an agressive maintenance schedule and takes full advantage (sometimes abuse) of it. It is hard to argue against good cautious maintenance at anytime, but yeah there is an element of hype to this to the financial benefit of Ferrari, and it shows up (hyped) in resale also. Good post..good point.