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Discussion in 'Other Off Topic Forum' started by beast, Jan 13, 2004.

  1. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

    May 31, 2003
    8,965
    Lewisville, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Guess
    Have you seen the Phx Supercross on TV yet?? I cannot belive that they find windham 10 points for a block pass.

    Man the sport is just not the same when you and i raced, Back then a move like that would have been called fair. I guess the moder riders dont want to chip there fingernails!!!!
     
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  3. AnotherDunneDeal

    AnotherDunneDeal F1 Veteran

    Jun 2, 2003
    5,308
    N.Richland Hills, Tx
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    James Dunne
    I used to teach block passing in our MX schools. I did not see the incident as it happened but would like to. Was it an honest block pass where he shut the door by cutting across the corner into the opposing berm or did he have the other rider by a bike length and cut him off???? Two totally ways of looking at it. If he took the inside from the outside and used the berm to propel himself back while the other rider was keeping the outside line the whole way through, I see no wrong. Hmmm, I need to see a replay of that.........
     
  4. AnotherDunneDeal

    AnotherDunneDeal F1 Veteran

    Jun 2, 2003
    5,308
    N.Richland Hills, Tx
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    James Dunne
    Beast,
    Now you wouldn't intentionally help someone over the top of a berm, would you??????
     
  5. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

    May 31, 2003
    8,965
    Lewisville, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Guess
    Who me??? NEVER :D

    For what it is worth here is a story about the penalty http://www.cyclenews.com/ShowStory.asp?HeadlineID=5729

    The real BS of the deal is this statement "we've made a commitment to make the racetracks a bit safer and a lot less demanding on the riders"

    Give me a break. That is such garbage I guess next year they will be racing on a flat track with no jumps!!!!

    Rob
     
  6. AnotherDunneDeal

    AnotherDunneDeal F1 Veteran

    Jun 2, 2003
    5,308
    N.Richland Hills, Tx
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    James Dunne
    Sounds like bull to me. A block pass should be allowed as part of MX racing. If Kevin stopped in the corner in order to block it is wrong. A block pass is used to shorten the corner and use to berm to propel you back on line. The way I used to do it was:

    If while following another rider around the track for a lap or two to watch his lines (if he was holding me up), I would wait for a fast 180 corner. Usually it is quickest to set up and ride the outside berm around applying judicious throttle. But, in attempting a pass here, you pull alongside the rider you are following and angle the bike directly at the center of the berm halfway thru the corner. While he stays outside and rides the berm I dive inside still on the throttle. Just an instant before launching myself over the berm, I grab the brakes hard, throw the bike sideways into the berm while shifting down two gears ,clutch and bring the rpms way up. When I make contact with the berm, I am almost laying flat. I release the clutch with the engine screaming and it immediately launches me back in the opposite direction and back onto the inside line coming out of the corner. I have only been on the berm for a fraction of a second but placed myself in front of the rider who was in front of me at the start of the corner. He must slow to avoid hitting me but since I now have the corner, I own it and he must avoid me. Never, ever attempt to do this to physically hit the other rider and cause him to lose it over the berm. Only attempt it if after following him and learning his line you judge that it is possible. You should contact the berm a bike length or two in front of him but he is riding the berm in a U shape and you have now made the corner a V.

    It works in most cases but not all and I have gone over the top of the berm on several occasions by mistiming when I would throw the bike sideways. It is always fun to feel the top of the berm give way while still moving sideways at high speed. Talk about extreme riding. That will do it. For some reason it seems to really hurt when that rides ends quickly.

    I do not agree with the call unless intentional contact was made and then I would agree. I watched Pierre Karsmakers use Jimmy Weinert for a berm coming out of the ravine at Lake Whitney,Texas during the 1973 250 National event there. It was right in front of me and Jimmy had just come up out of the ravine and was making a 90 right hander against the berm when Pierre came flying out of the ravine, threw his bike sideways in the air and catapaulted off of Jimmys front and rear tire, passing Jimmy for the lead at the time. Jimmy did not go down but he did slow down. Pierre received no penalties at all and Jimmy went to him later saying what a ballsy move it was to make and would remember to use moves like that himself.
     
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  8. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

    May 31, 2003
    8,965
    Lewisville, TX
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    Rob Guess
    James;

    I just watched the start again in slow motion and Villiman parked Kevin in the corner prior and killed his drive. In the corner in question you can see that Kevin and 2 other riders go in deep into the inside of the corner. Kevin did not stop, he was making a wide arc to the outside and bam David hit Kevin!!! Kevin had his front wheel in front of David.

    I dont have the 2004 AMA rule book i front of myself so i don know if it states "The rider intending to make a block pass must ask the other rider for permission before attemting said pass!"

    Man the AMA needs to can Whitlock fast before he screws up the sport any further.

    Rob
     
  9. AnotherDunneDeal

    AnotherDunneDeal F1 Veteran

    Jun 2, 2003
    5,308
    N.Richland Hills, Tx
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    James Dunne
    I read Whitlocks response when questioned about this pass. He maintains that Kevin made a revenge hit and charged him for it. To me it sounds like a legitimate block pass in the classic form. MX racing was never meant to be a demostruction derby but it was never intended to be an easy on the rider, don't touch me sport. It is meant as a ride your line, give up nothing and hang on to it race.

    I have been knocked down, knocked out, run over many times during various races. I wonder what Whitlock would have said about the time I was running second and attempted to pass the lead rider and hit the inside of two berms at a 90 degree left hander that gave way and caused me to fly sideways into the outside berm while going down. It put me right in the thick of the pack that was taking the outside line as a majority. I was hit and immediately knocked unconscious by the first bike and hit another 9 times. The race was stopped while they cleared up the mess, I am told, I do not remember. Would Whitlock have charged me with a penalty for impeding traffic???? It was a racing incident that was not done on purpose. I believe that is what Kevin did also. A planned strategic move that was made to get past a rider that was slowing him down.

    BTW, I was in the hospital for two weeks on that one and in rehab for the next six months. I raced one more time after that, a year later. In that race I finished 7th in the first heat and 2nd in the second one. When I rode back to the pits and stopped, the guys had to hold the bike up for me and help me off it as I was so sore I could not hold the bike up. Gave up racing at that time ,1975. Sometimes my brain says that I could still get out there and do it, but my body reminds my brain that it has aged a few years since that time. It reminds me of the old saying,
    "The older we get, the better we were".
     
  10. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

    May 31, 2003
    8,965
    Lewisville, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Guess
    James;

    No kiding i have been there myself several times. One time in Ponca City Ok. on the practice track i was out there with Damon Bradshaw. I was on my 500 and Damon on his 125 The track was way to tight for an open bike and i recall Damon slamming into myself at every corner. After we both pulled off Damon came up to myself and said "If everyone protected there line like you do, Passing would become impossible!!"

    The way i saw it in Phx when i was at the event and from a reverse angle on TV Villiman screwed up and left himself wide open for a pass attempt. My first rule is if some one is on my butt take the inside line as fast as possible thru a corner to protect your position as the other rider will have to either carry more speed on the outside or punt yourself off of the track when they T-Bone yourself.

    BTW the last person that T-Boned myself shattered the front wheel on impact with my bike!!!! :D

    Rob
     
  11. AnotherDunneDeal

    AnotherDunneDeal F1 Veteran

    Jun 2, 2003
    5,308
    N.Richland Hills, Tx
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    James Dunne
    Man, my body aches to think about it.

    I watched Damon a number of years ago at Yamaha Goldcup race in Odessa, Texas. He was really fast until he fell and he fell a lot. This was, I believe, one of Jeremy McGraths first pro races. He won the 2nd heat in 250 and everyone was amazed that "this young kid" could ride like he did. Little did they realize they were watching a legend be born.

    I took my wife, who incidentally did not know I had raced professionally, and my 2 year old, at that time, son. We sat about 5 rows up to be able to see the track better and sat next to a triple jump. The bikes completed the triple and immediately hit a 90 degree left hander built on the back wall of the coliseum. As the guys would come past us at the peak of their triple jumps they were about level with our seats. Mike Kidd had called and invited me to come see the race since he was the promoter. I told her who he was and told her that I, at one time in the past, had done this. She looked at me and said "You used to do this"? I said "Sure, it was a lot of fun". She then replied, "You really are crazy, aren't you"? I think she has me pegged...........
     
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  13. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

    May 31, 2003
    8,965
    Lewisville, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Guess
    I took my new girlfriend to the Phx Supercross last weekend. That was the first time that she had ever been to one. I had told her about my racing adventures well before the race. once she got inside and started to watch practice she leaned over and asked myself the same thing. LOL

    Now she wants myself to pull out the old videos of me back in the day so she can watch them. Just wait till she views the one where i did take out the guy infront of myself for a pass.

    At least she is cool about everything that i did she wants to learn how to snowboard, see myself dirt bike, learn how to fly R/C and get a ride in a Ferrari one day... I think i might be in trouble :D
     
  14. AnotherDunneDeal

    AnotherDunneDeal F1 Veteran

    Jun 2, 2003
    5,308
    N.Richland Hills, Tx
    Full Name:
    James Dunne
    Sounds like you got a good one. My wife wanted to restrict me from taking our son to any more events after that one. She did not want him to get hooked. Well, guess who has not been back to see one of the events live but now wants to "ride like Ricky Carmichael"?

    You know I also used to drag race pretty heavily in a 23 Ford bodied altered roadster. Ran 8's at 165-168 mph. I have always loved it also. Well, my wife and son were driving around one day and she noticed this "little girl" standing beside this "long, thin, funny looking car. They stopped and talked to her and her dad. They had pulled her junior dragster out of the garage and he was working with the engine. The girl told them all about how she got involved with her mom and dad in doing it and how much fun she was having. My wife came home and announced that she had found something that "you and J.J. can do together". Enter a smile here. I said "really, I'll have to check it out". I have not done it yet but it sounds like I have a kitchen pass here.
     
  15. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

    May 31, 2003
    8,965
    Lewisville, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Guess
    James;

    I hear you on that one. while i have never raced a legal drag race i have tried out a friends top alcohol dragster (same as top fuel with out the nitromethane ) OMG. I have never been slammed so hard into a seat back in my life as did in that thing.

    My next future racing adventure i feel will be SCCA car road racing.

    Rob
     
  16. AnotherDunneDeal

    AnotherDunneDeal F1 Veteran

    Jun 2, 2003
    5,308
    N.Richland Hills, Tx
    Full Name:
    James Dunne
    Beast,

    You got to drive a Top Alcohol car without a competition license? Where did that happen? A Top Alcohol car has a greater possibility of blowing up a supercharger than even a Top Fuel car. If you begin to lose traction and the tires start to go up in smoke you cannot just easily backpedal, regain traction and get back into it. In an alky car that will blow the top off the supercharger.

    Wow, drove a top alky car!!! Cool...... People just do not realize what real power is until they do something like that. Did you get to make a 1/4, 1/2 or a full pass. I assume that he just let you take it off the line and then back out of it and coast through. Am I correct?????
     
  17. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

    May 31, 2003
    8,965
    Lewisville, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Guess
    James;
    The Owner of the car has a friend that owns a strip in S. NM and we had use of the track for the day :)

    I did about a 1/4 of a run since i got scared S@#$less i just backed off and coasted the thing. I was shaking so bad after the run, it took myself about 20 mins to calm down. He had the motor set up so that it was only running on about 5/8 - 3/4 throttle.

    As for the motors blowing up he did warn myself about not to back off and then jump on it again. 4 passes latter he smoked the tires, backed off and blew the blower right off of the thing.

    He has offered myself another run in the car anytime i want to but so far i have declined. At least i can say that i have done it once in my life.

    Rob
     
  18. AnotherDunneDeal

    AnotherDunneDeal F1 Veteran

    Jun 2, 2003
    5,308
    N.Richland Hills, Tx
    Full Name:
    James Dunne
    The first time I launched my altered roadster hard, I almost had a heart attack. The front end jumped up, bounced me off the wheelie bars and slammed the front wheels back down on the strip only to wheelie again and ride the rollers on the wheelie bars about 1/4 way down the strip. I, like you, back off and coasted thru for a 12 second run. I learned quickly that I needed to slightly haze the tires off the line or I would point that car straight up. And with only a 96 inch wheelbase, the handling was certainly not there to help adjust for any miscues.

    I did finally hit an 8.96 one time and had a trap speed of 168 mph after staying in it all the way thru the speed lights. Now this car ran in the A/Econo altered class meaning that it could only be carbureted. It dynoed slightly over 650 hp at the rear axle and weighed about 1,200 lbs. I normally ran low 9's in the upper 150's, lower 160's.

    Man was that a fun time. I am really fortunate that I have been able to do professional, factory MX, real drag racing, some track driving and be around some outstanding Ferrari and Maserati race teams. I even had the opportunity to sit in and steer the Audi R8 that ran at Lemans. I will try to find and post some pictures of some of these things. Unfortunately, when I was racing MX digital cameras were not around and when drag racing, very few pictures were given to me of the car. I will see what I can find.
     

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