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Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by squidracing, Dec 18, 2003.
Nice shot James. My suit's on...let me know after you've warmed it up for me!!
Matt my friend notice the dents by my elbow? Bruce McLaren made those. I'll turn it over at 8pm; as Steve said: "Watch out for the Red Lola".
Nice wheels! Unfortunately for us, 7 liters at 7500 RPMS is a little out or reach for our wallets! LOL I doubt that's a real streetable car as well. Does it have a cup holder??? I rest my case. ;>)
It doesn't have cup holders but it is street legal and has been registered for the 12 years I've owned it. I've put over 20,000 street miles on it. I've driven it in the snow as well.
I'm not so sure about this, two track days ago a S2000 blew trying to catch me and catch me and catch me as I was lapping it. I'll find the video, the entire back end was black after all the fire out the pipes.
I hear stories of S2000's, Z06's, and Vipers blowing motors. How often do you hear a Ferrari blowing a motor? Yes, I know, there are fewer, but also if anything goes wrong with a Ferrari there are 100 wannabes there screaming it.
Like someone else said in the thread, everyone else competes against Ferrari.
Early s2000's had oiling problems with the #4 cylinder as it would lose pressure under sustained high rpm use. (The U.S. cars that were heavily tracked saw this, and so did the Euro cars that saw Autobahn use). That's since been remedied as have the tranny/diff issues. The only s2000's that blow are heavily modified cars -- and that's not suprising , becuase at some point, something's got to give. Nonetheless, the s2000 engine, is probably one of the best motors (next to the integra type R motor) for track use; it's sweetspot starts a 6k and loves you all the way to 9k -- and it's not gutless either.
As far as upping displacement. I doesn't neccessarily have to kill your rpm range, but it depends on how you do it, and how excessive you get. If you "stroke" a motor, then you inherantly have to modify the internal geomtery, and, usually, you worsen the rod/stroke ratio (this dictates how freely the crank/rod "flow" during a revolution -bad r/s = ****ty high rpm reliability. A lot of the domestic gear heads do this, but they generate something like 600 ft/lbs at 2500 rpm (or less) which makes the concern for prolonged high rpm use almost moot.
The other way is to bore out the motor. This has no ill effect on engine geometry, but it does adversly (after a point) effect the engine dynamics as a whole because as you increase bore you increase piston size, and more importantly weight. Also, big bore motors also become limited by block thickness, and once you shave off too much material, you're going to have cooling issue, and oiling issues as the oil will be getting worked hard. As will the bearings, the seals and the actual block itself.
U.S. cars will never be light, lithe ect becuase our department of transportation nanny burocracy mandates all the idiot life saving devices that weight the cars down; i.e., airbags, impact beams, bumpers, glass of this thickness, etc etc etc etc. The only other way to do is exotic materials, but that would cause the already ridicolous sticker prices to climb even more; however, the new Carrera GT is testament to what can be done using exotic materials, but the old days of 1800 lbs street cars are gone, long gone. (At least in this country).
And, Rob, you don't see blow Ferrari becuase theyre either 1. at the shop, 2. in the garage, or 3. on a lawn. Ya caint break it, if ya aint usin it.
PS: >>everyone else competes against Ferrari<< the NSX set the standard that elevated today's ferraris to what they are now. Even Luca (having bought a 348 in the early days, with his own money) said it was a POS.
Lotus hit those numbers back in 1989....
120+ per litre...
The Enzo has about 110bhp/liter... that's pretty good for a six liter V12.
YES! More big inch power.
unfortunately me engine blew the 1st time i had it on track at limerock 2 yrs ago. problem was a nut holding the cam journal came loose and fouled the oil pump/flow that starved the motor. took $15k and 4 months to replace 1 head, and repair the bottom end/crank. i was shocked to see how shi**y the internals of the engine were made esp when compared to what i'd seen in pcar engines. so far its behaving for last 2 yrs but i have little confidence in fcar being built robustly.
ps. as for poll about reliability - interesting in forza how the test 360 alarm wouldnt let car start then "fixed itself." glad thats not my problem
What did you blow? The 348?
yes rob but amazingly thats been only thing thats ever needed repair which i attribute to luck and not build/engineering quality.
My experience is just the opposite... my 911 has been in the shop 10x the days that my 360 has. You have to be careful concluding much from singleton experiences... reliability is the world of statistics.
That was almost surely user error. The security system is designed to lock you out if you don't know WTF you are doing... figures you must be a thief. I had hell with it until I bothered to RTFM, after which I've had no more than momentary delay.
thats awsome that you drive that car that much on the street!!
From a financial standpoint, I think that the worse reliability makes more sense for Ferrari. These days, everybody dreams of owning a Ferrari, and they DO choose to buy one with their heart...that means that the market base for Ferraris are there, reliability or no reliability, and having engines which need major services every 15000 miles or whatever just dumps more money into Ferraris pockets...
The best route to higher performance lies in the direction of lower weight.
Just imagine a 360 engine in a 2000 pound car! Lotus Elise is taking this direction and blowing away 350-400 HP cars on the track with a 180 HP car of extremly light weight and an excellent suspension system.
Light weight solves three problems simultaneously: A) the TQ to weight ratio is optimized, so you don't need so bi an engine, B) the HP to weight ratio is optimized so you don't need so big an engine, C) since you don't need so big an engine, the transmission and the structure holding the engine can all be lighter. Light weight feed upon itself. D) without all that weight to carry around, the car is operating on a better part of the tire's traction envelope (more grip from wame sized tires) so the car can corner better, brake better, and accellerate better.
Throwing a bigger engine at the problem is like an ostrich hiding its head in the sand.
How safe is an 1800 lb car on the street? That would be my concern.
My 1500 pound car is likely a deathtrap; I don't consider it any safer than a motorcycle.
We're talking about street cars with electric windows, leather interiors, AC, radio/cd, etc, etc. These trucks need more torque. My P4 at 1800 lbs doesn't but a 360 surely does esp if it's gonna stay with the latest from Lambo, Ford, Vette, P, etc., etc. all of which are going to blow a 360 away.
Someones got to state the truth.
"theres no replacement for cubic displacement"
Ferrari went from 246,308,328,348,355,360, see any pattern here?
My question is why doesn't Ferrari stop teasing us with these small increases in displacement, and just drop a 5+ litre motor in an eight cylinder model already??
Unless they become able to squeeze 150hp/litre, they'll never be able to keep up with the power output that other exotics bring to the table.
And to everyone who thinks weight is the way to go......
Do you HAVE ANY IDEA how difficult it is to get a creature comfort street car to drop - even 200 pounds?? I think everyone who thinks Ferrari should drop the weight of their street cars by 1000 - 1500 pounds are SERIOUS DREAMERS.
I mean....come on guys.....don't you all think they've done most all they could in this department. Unless you want to be driving around all day in a car like James......that's PRETTY MUCH the best they can do!!!!
ps.....to all those who will reply to my weight comments....PLEASE USE APPLE/APPLE COMPARISONS. Yeah, the Elise and Excige (sp?) are light, but they fit in my shirt pocket.
I'll add that if you want to improve hp or TQ to weight ratios, it is MUCH MUCH cheaper to simply build a bigger engine than to reduce weight because a bigger engine means an extra $10 of aluminum, weight reduction means replacing steel with alum (3x the cost) or Alum with Carbon (10x the cost). The other thing is that hp to weight ratio is what you care about for acceleration, but hp to drag sets the top speed, so a bigger engine improves both top speed and acceleration, a weight reduction only improves acceleration. Also at high speed, the car needs size and wieght to remain stable. Small, light cars are a blast at the autocross, but get very scary as the speed goes over 100 or so.
Ferrari needs bigger engines (or superchargers) if they want to build faster cars. I not 100% sure they do want to build faster cars though. The vast majority of the people who buy their cars don't have a clue how to drive a race car. It seems to me that the small dispacement engines that make very little tQ in the rpm range that most people drive, makes the cars pretty user freindly. Then when you do want to play race car, they have hp on top. My guess is that they pick a hp they feel the car is safe at and design the engine to achieve it. As tires and suspension have improved over the years, Ferrari has increased the hp of there cars to take advantage of it. But if you want a 500 hp 360 like car, I don't think they will sell it to you...maybe if it comes with traction control I guess.
You can lose 1000#s off the 360. It just costs money. Probably would cost about 500 - 600k to produce and would sell in the low 7 figure range. Wouldn't sell too many, I think. Ferrari could either raise the displacement and HP, or lose a lot of weight. Those chose a combo on the Stradale, but I'm told that the 420 will have 450HP, about the same weight at the 360, and look a little like the Enzo. Will it be fasted than the new Ford: probably not, because of the HP of the Ford. It will be a Ferrari however, not a Ford, and lets get serious: who in their right mind thinks they can use all that HP? I'd bet that none of us could.
I agree with what you have to say....except the part... ' who in their right mind thinks they can use all that HP? I'd bet that none of us could.'
I'm not Schumi, but I've milked every hp out of a 355 Challenge and always would have loved another 150 or so hp. After driving a Jaguar bodied Trans Am car, I can tell you that there is nothing like 700 hp under your right foot just begging you to unleash its fury.
being American that has to be one of the most american questions ever asked. Were always thinking theres no replacement for displacement. but obviously we are wrong.A 3.0L V-10 proves that
You want to drive that motor on the street? It takes 5 men and a dog 3 hours to start that motor. Ever see a standing start in one of those? Think you could do that on a SF hill?