Hi all First off a little history I baught a 7000 mi 81 308 about 5 years ago. It jumped time on the foront head after having it for about two mounths it sat long time I got around to fixing it finally All new valves and all new timming belts tryed to sell it BUT, It was running really good ... But then after a couple hundred miles it started with the starter staying engaged with key off and then started running really bad hardly running and then caught fire I got it out quikly but not before my tail lights burnd and my bumper and fillits. Not real bad really but I do need those few parts and some paint. I could post some pics I was lucky I think. Been collecting parts got a new bumper, and a spare computor as I thought it may have caused the running bad part and fire. now I am playing with it again years latter and have a few bucks to spend on it so Im playing with it again, car wont start when I try starter stays cranking on with starter off pulled all wires off starter and jumperd it still does it while installed on engine pulled it off bench checked it, It works fine on bench!!! Reinstalled it same thing starter stays on cranking with key off. Bad Cylinoid??? were can I get one? Second Motor is not getting fuel? Jumped fuel pump derectly with wire with fuel lines off pump, Pump run's but no fuel? tank has gas in it whats up?. Bad pump???? could this have caused the bad running and fire? Thank's for any help I am a pro mechanic but have very limited Ferrari exp. Have a Book but its hard to understand at times.
Oh buy the way I havnt even cracked 10,000 miles yet with this car its still under 10,000 mi. I belive it says 8700 mi. on the clock original! crying shame! prety car fly yellow Black interior makes me sick. We have a Love hate relation ship, I love her But she hates me.
Whew.....that's a lot of issues.....welcome though... I only drive them, so maybe a guru will be along shortly to offer some assistance. I have read all the books too though,....they are at times quite bizarre! "What we have here is an early injected car...." nice color choice, anyway. Did you replace tensioners with the belts? ALWAYS do that...sounds like maybe the first problem started there....
That's what they told me with my first purchase: "You know why most Ferraris are low miles, Sonny?" "No....why?" "Because they don't stay running long enough, to get to be HIGH mileage!!" *guffaw....guffaw* Sadly, it looks like yours may be an example of this situation........ Lots of smart folks here to help though, pull up a chair!
Check with TRutlands for a used set of lights the US amber/clear reverse are all but impossible...... They may have the rear bumper too, as the only way the kill these cars is to burn the rear, or crash the front!
You say the car has been sitting for years. Did you drain out the fuel tank and fuel lines before you let the car sit, or did it sit for "years" with gas in the tank and lines? If so, what you now have is a real mess. The gas goes bad over time and can leave gum and deposits everywhere. Fuel lines may be plugged. Injectors may be clogged. Even if you are moving fuel, if it is years old, it probably won't ignite in the cylinders. If you have old fuel in there, you definitely need to drain it out, change all the fuel lines, pull the injectors and clean them, and flush the pump and install a new fuel filter. That's just for starts. As far as the starter goes, it sounds like the solinoid or the throw-out bearing. Could possibly be a bad relay, but most likely culprit is the solinoid. You will have to pull the starter out and have it rebuilt or core exchange it for a new one. You also need to figure out where the fire started and what caused it. You do not want to get the car started and have it catch fire again. Changing all the hoses is essential, but that may not be the source of the fire. You need to go through the engine bay with a fine tooth comb and make sure everything is as it should be. And just because you did a belt change a few years ago doesn't mean they are still good now. If they have been sitting for years, chances are they are no good. So change the belts and make sure timing, etc. is all set up right. Just a few thoughts. There is a lot more there to do, but that should get you going in the right direction.
As I said I am a Pro mechanis just not a Ferrari Mechanic. 35 years exp. Pump seams cloged to me runs as it runs but no fuel comes out. Sarter seams to be a cylonoid to me as it sticks while cranking and continues to crank till battery is pulled. Fire has me baffeld every thing looks good came from cats that for sure. dont ever remember seeing slow down lights ever comeing on. I hope I am able to find the lights. Fuel lines good tank was draind Engine compresion test good all 8 cyl right around 170 lowest 168 Cold! Right now I wanna know if pump is bad Book talks about doing all kinda stuff to test it in car this is out and on the bench at this time.
Throw some tubing on it and take 12V and ground it.......the injected ones use a different pump though...has a pressure regulator or something? I have carbed cars is why I'm not much help......plus, I'm stupid.....
Big Tex Thanks for replies! Im stupid too Been working on cars all my life! Dont want to replace good parts, just wanna know if pump should be spraying fuel or if you have to use all the rest of the stuff acumulator ect to see fule press.
Try a site search on "fuel pump + accumulator..there was a recent thread with much discussion of the Bosch pump number and the updated valve assmebly that maintains line pressure....these are getting hard to find and an alternate suggestions were made.. My car has a simple Facet pump, it's different!
ROTFLMFAO!!! I'm no expert on the injection on these things either, but the fuel pump does not kick in and build pressure unless the engine is cranking or running. Putting the key in the #2 position doesn't run the fuel pump like on a carbed car. If your starter is cranking without the key in the right position, (meaning: all by itself because of a bad solenoid) then you are not getting fuel either. (Key must be fully advanced to start/run position to get fuel). "91TR" and Verell here on Fchat are both very knowledgable k-jet experts, not to mention Rifledriver and Ferrarifixer. We need to get some k-jet brainiacs on this one. I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. Seems you have had all the bad things that tend to happen to 308s happen to yours. When I first started reading your post I thought it was a joke. ("Bent my valves, engine caught on fire!") On the plus side, maybe the car got it all our of her system and she is ready to cooperate now. The fire most likely was a result of unburned fuel from one bank of cylinders igniting in the cat. The dual ignition system means that one bank can die, but the car still runs (poorly) while the faulty bank simply passes fuel through the cylinders to the cats. Not good!! Birdman
I thought I explaind I am trying to bench test the fuel pump being it only has a Positive and negative terminals I cannot see how the pump would know anything about key position or relay position it should only know its got power or not plain and simple, It should pump fuel with power. Now their may be somthing about the acumulator haveing to hold pressure on a check valve or somthing I have seen this on Jets pumps for aircraft, so thats why I ask if this is the case and it has an internal check valve keeping it from pumping fuel????
There is a check valve on the output of the pump head, but its purpose is to not allow fuel to flow back into the pump. If the interior volume of the pump is completely filled with fuel, and the pump is running, it should pump fuel out (at a scary rate ). I guess it's possible that the check valve is stuck in the closed position. Can you confirm which type pump+check valve you have per the jpegs? Unfortunately, I have to agree with Steve W. that letting a K/KE-Jet sit for years is way, way bad. The most basic check would be to confirm/deny if the airflow metering plate moves smoothly when depressed and returns smoothly to the rest position (engine off, no fuel pressure present). If it's stuck/sticky that would be a very bad sign. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Check the intake side of the pump. There should be some fuel flowing there because it's mounted at the low point of the fuel system. The fuel pump is located on the left lower frame, right? I have a carbed car so I don't know a lot about fuel injection cars. If you're not getting fuel to the pump, then before you burn up the pump, you need to get fuel to the pump. The pump itself pumps by rocking a bladder back and forth. Since your car has been sitting for a long time, it's likely that the bladder has gone bad. This means that the mechannical parts of the pump work but there's no flow becasue the bladder isn't holding any fuel. You can check this by running the pump on a bench and you should get a little air flowing through if the bladder is ok. I'm guessing that the fuel pump needs to be replaced. You could probably take it apart and see if you can find a bladder someplace and replace that, but the old Ferrari pumps are hard to find parts for. If you take it apart then you should check the one way valves that enable the bladder to hold the fuel. It's probably easier to just get a new pump. Your fuel lines need to be replaced. That includes the hoses for the filler tube and the cross hoses, top and bottom, that go from one tank to the other. There's several threads on fuel lines. This is not an expensive project to do. Ferrari just uses clamps and not aeroquip or some other reusable fitting. Mostly, it's time consuming. I suggest that you replace them one at a time so you don't get the lines mixed up. Those old fuel lines are a fire asking to be started. Lastly, get your ignition checked out. Ferraris are very touchy when it comes to timing and airfuel mixture. Timing, both valve and ignition, and air/fuel mixture is the most common engine problem. Good luck with your car. Bob Wassam
Guys -- the Bosch CIS fuel pump has an eccentric vane roller type pump head -- no "bladder" nor "diaphragm". I guess if all of the rollers were stuck at their most inboard positions, the pump could spin and not do anything. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Oh, man! Cadillac used that type of design, they could be ruined my merely adding ceratin fuel additives! A friend that worked there with me finally told one owner, after several pumps: "Look buddy, I don't know WHAT the he11 you are adding to your gas, but KNOCK IT OFF!" We never saw the guy again!
91 TR I have the first one the early K jetronic type pump no air flow threw it no fuel either. so I will be buying a pump monday I thought it was dead. It was probably my whole problem. The airflow meatering plate does move smoothly up and down. fuel lines could be replaced from age alone but my priority is just to get this thing running again at this point, Cant convince powers to be to spend moneys on another dead car! after it runs then she wants to drive it! Its a bit easyer that way to get moneys! She wants my Mopars done first any ways as she knows what I can do and what they are worth. What do you think about the starter? I tried to take the cylonoid apart but didnt want to force it kinda stuck together acts like a week spring???? Is the starter supposed to have shims inbetween the starter and the mount pad of the bell housing? wondering if maybe a interferance is happening holding the bendix engaged? To every one else thank you oh so very much for the responsis!!!! big thumbs up!
Definitely sounds like the starter's pinion gear is physically getting hung up on the ring gear and not disengaging properly. In the stock arrangement there would be no shims. If you've got shims that would be a strong clue that there is something amiss, but it might also be a reasonable solution. If you add (large) equal thickness shims, this can decrease the face engagement of the gears and aid disengagement, but it's not the greatest IMO (because it also reduces the desired face engagement when starting). Assuming the solenoid itself is OK, the better approach IMO would be to use (thin) unequal thickness shims placed in such a manner that it moves the pinion gear away from the ring gear (i.e., it slightly increases the center-to-center distance from the ring gear axis to the pinion gear axis). Is there any excessive wear or ridges on the pinion gear flanks?
Hi 91 TR No no real wear pattern or no excessive wear pattern no flakeing no grinding either. Dam thing just stays engaged cranking away. There are no shims either I was just wondering if there should be. As I said it works normally on bench, as soon as its bolted to engine with no wires hooked to it just the battery and jumped it sticks engaged and continues to crank so its not wireing its enternal in the cylinoid. I have been unable to locate one so far. I was also unable to disassemble the little sob as it was hanging up while trying to pull apart I was afraid to break any thing so I stoped.
Well, got all my new parts on today new fuel pump and starter but still no run. Got spark, got fuel, got no air! The metering plate will not move down! Its very stiff going down! moves good after fuel press is removed but as soon as fuel press hits it it stays all the way up. If its held down a tiny bit the engine does try to start. Is there an easy fix for this problem Without having too buy a whole new metering manifold? Can the metering plate manifold assembly be rebuilt like a carb? Does any one rebuild them? Is it possible the problem is external to the fuel metering manifold? Ya know its kinda funny how all these problems happend all at once after taking the car to a Cruse auction. I also have a new post going for these problems as 81 2v Fuel injection problems. Thanks for the help in advance
I want too thank every one that has tried too help me I found the problem today after starting over and pulling both dist. caps and spark plug wires and ohming them out double checking every thing, I took a break and came in and checked to see if any one had left me any new things to check here at the web site and did another search on the problem in the web site search deal and read about a guy who had a similar problem and had found a bad TDC sensor cause all his woe's. I then said no way it couldnt be that simple but went out and looked around any way hoping for a quick fix and then there it was a bolt pinching one of the TDC sensor wires I was completely dumbfounded I couldn't believe what I was seeing and couldn't believe it but went ahead and put it all back together too see if it was it and sure enough that's all it was all this time. I still have too fix all the previous damage from the fire but I got it back too running any way that's done thanks for all your help every one.
The pump and accumulator look like junk, I replaced the works with BMW sourced pieces, the pump was $140 and the accumulator for $106, I have deleted the accumulator on beator bimmers and they have a funny little surge back and forth.I also replaced the pipe as they are easily ruined and that was $126.I replaced my starter with the Bosch unit,$600,no core.My car has 17000 miles, 84 EuroS, and have owned Redcars 30yrs, always best to go thru them not try to "fix"em.
