Very strong prose from Paul Velasco in this article posted on the GrandPrix247 website. An historic on Honda's presence in F1. Velasco doesn't mince his words. INSIDE LINE: F@CK OFF HONDA AND GOOD RIDDANCE Paul Velasco 4 October, 2020 https://www.grandprix247.com/2020/10/04/inside-line-fck-off-honda-and-good-riddance/ The world of Formula 1 went into shock this past week when Honda announced they would be quitting the sport at the end of 2021, triggering a slew of doom and gloom reports about the future of our sport.
It is more like a historical analysis of Honda running away with their tails behind their legs, multiple times, just prior to the moment of success.
So Honda quits F1 then says it loud and clear that they are all in with IndyCar and their new hybrid formula. Sounds like and "in your face" statement to the F1 boys.
The story is that McLaren imposed some packaging to Honda to suit the design they had decided for their car. That made life difficult for Honda and was one of the reasons why they failed to deliver. Apparently Red Bull made no such demands, allowing the Japanese more freedom in design. Instead, Adrian Newey adapted his design to the engine Honda came up with.
Paul Velasco is spot on, Honda are a bunch of cowards, blah blah about electrification, yet they sign an extension with Indy Car. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Hope they don't come back. Hey let's get Cosworth V8's back out and Ferrari can dust off their 2.4 V8, I say it in jest. But at least the sound and entertainment value would increase.
Indy car requires almost no "development" on a per year basis. The fuel stays the same, the displacement stays the same, the chassis supplier stays the same, the rev limits stay the same. I know of an engine builder who built 1/3 rd of the Infinity engines (when Infinity was in Indy car). He tells of a story where his boss was going on vacation and pointed at three 55 gallon drums of methanol and said, I want you to find 5-7 HP before I get back in 2 weeks. So, they took some new heads (remember these were developed from road going cars at that point in time) and tied various valve job angles, built up the engines and ran them on the dyno over a 2 week period and found about 10 HP.
I guess the challenges aren't the same. Honda in Indycar is to suit the US market, with a relatively simple engine. Honda F1 competes in a worldwide series with very complex engineering.
That is quite impressive as rant. Nothing else. F1 has a history of teams or Corporations leaving. News this is not.
I think it's become too challenging. Right now with latest ruling, making an upgrade nigh on impossible and incredibly costly, there seems to be no real positives to joining F1 unless you enjoy setting fire to money (even if you do, your investors probably do not).There is no margin for error. But there's also no testing. So all you have is test benches (still incredibly costly and data will always vary from real world). All whilst the world is looking at your every move. It's just not worth it.
Explains perfectly why Honda leaving is not news or an astonishing development. Boards evaluate effort, cost and reward. F1 wants large corporations involved. They decide what a “benefit” means to them first then F1.
Look at the bigger picture in car / engine development, not just one example. Look back over history and see how many teams have won as customer based team. Not many without total comittment. I suspect Newey had no alternative as they had just divorced from Renault. He would, imo, not start designing a car like that. Best Tony
My point is: Where the engine is developed and manufactured? In the UK or Japan? Acquiring a Japanese company or project is a whole different thing. Their business culture is a world apart. Imagine an anglo boss, "very high" on Red Bull, interacting with the team in Japan through a Zoom meeting? As much as smart and productive the Japanese are, they haven't adapted well in the last 30 years of globalization. In the aerospace industry, for example, the Japanese do very badly, even though they are one of the industrial powers of the world. I know for a fact that some companies in Japan took the extreme action to set minimum quotas for foreigners in their management (eg.: Rakuten) because they realized they were falling behind in competing in a world economy. And that is mainly due to their very particular and bureaucratic business culture. In F1, being a fast-paced environment and always with a lot of pressure for results, I don't think that a Red Bull onwership of a F1 engine developer in Japan would work. If engine regulations would be the same for 2021 and 2022, I could foresee a company such as Cosworth or Mecachrome buying the Honda design, but not taking onboard a whole team in Japan.
I realise that Flavio, but they already work with Honda now, an aquisition / working relationship / buyout is not beyond the realms of modern communications or indeed buying out the design rights and then working UK based eventually. Its a feasible proposition in my opinion and secures future development of the team, especially if they can get it at a bargain like Brawn & Co. Think of all the R&D work saved. At the moment "possibly" next years car design or the 2022 car is severely compromised or at the very least set back with Honda withdrawing. I cannot think of many F! teams who have been successful if F1 without the full and total commitment of a engine supplier, secondary teams play 2nd fiddle. But thats just my opinion Best tony
Honda open to facilitating Red Bull engine project post-2021 Honda’s Formula 1 project leader is willing to discuss Red Bull keeping its engines after its 2021 F1 exit so the team can develop them itself or with a new partner. Honda will leave F1 at the end of 2021 to redirect its research and development resources towards major automotive targets it has set, but wants to support the succession plan Red Bull must come up with for an alternative engine supply for its two teams. A return to Renault has been mooted as the simplest outcome given the lack of alternative manufacturers and FIA rules that would force Red Bull’s former engine partner to agree a deal if necessary. However, the sour nature of that relationship’s demise and Red Bull’s desire not to be relegated to engine customer status makes it unlikely to be the team’s first priority. “As Honda we had so many things from the teams, so we want to give it back somehow in a nice way for the future” - Masahi Yamamoto One alternative, which would likely require significant Red Bull commitment as well as agreement from all parties, is for Red Bull to assume Honda’s intellectual property and create a continuation programme for its engines, potentially with additional technical support from another partner. The Race understands no such request has been made but Honda is willing to consider it as it wishes to make its exit as painless as possible, especially as Red Bull Racing and AlphaTauri helped make it an F1 winner again after three hard years with McLaren. Honda F1 managing director Masashi Yamamoto told The Race: “Honda is happy to talk to them if they need us in any way, not only about the power unit but about other things as well. “To support AlphaTauri and Red Bull for their programme after 2021 in any way, we’re happy to cooperate. “As Honda we had so many things from the teams, so we want to give it back somehow in a nice way for the future.” Asked if there is a limit to how Honda would be willing to help and if it that would stop a potential continuation project using Honda’s technology, Yamamoto said: “If that kind of request is made from the team, I am ready to speak to Japan. “I personally want to support [what Red Bull and AlphaTauri do] as much as possible.” Creating the infrastructure required to take over development of Honda’s engine would be a significant undertaking by Red Bull. However, it has grown its facility at Milton Keynes, has major technical resources and partners, and could use it to redistribute some staff given the incoming budget cap in 2021 will force it to scale back its race team. Building its own engine in the short-term is not possible for Red Bull but it may consider a rebadged continuation project realistic and preferable to becoming a customer again. Honda started its Red Bull relationship in 2018 with the then-Toro Rosso junior team, as a precursor to a potential partnership with the senior outfit Red Bull was convinced early in the season to make the switch from Renault, with Honda dedicating resources to giving both the teams equal treatment as its de facto work outfits. “However in the future, Red Bull and AlphaTauri may not have that kind of situation with other parties,” Yamamoto acknowledged. “So, we want to support and help them in whatever way we can help them for the future.” “For next year, we will not reduce any people from our project. We will make the biggest effort in order to win as much as possible” - Masahi Yamamoto Honda extended its agreement with Red Bull at the end of 2019 to include the 2021 season. The manufacturer is therefore committed to seeing out that deal rather than undertaking a rapid exit when this season is over, which gives Red Bull more time to establish what it does for its two teams. Yamamoto said it has been a “frustrating” experience for himself and Honda CEO Takahiro Hachigo, who announced the company’s exit last Friday, as they wanted to keep the F1 programme going but had to respect the realities Honda is facing as an automotive company. He said it was also “uncomfortable” because of the impact it had on two teams and F1 if those teams could not find a competitive solution, reiterating Honda’s desire to help ease the consequences of its exit. “Our aim is now to exit the sport without making big [negative] changes in the sport,” he said. “That’s our target.” Honda has promised to develop a new engine for 2021 without reducing its commitment, to try to sign off with a world championship challenge. Though Red Bull and AlphaTauri have now both won with Honda, making it the only manufacturer to win with two teams in the V6 turbo-hybrid era, this season has not met expectations of a title assault. However, Red Bull is optimistic it may be able to challenge Mercedes next season, something Honda insists it will be dedicated to trying to achieve as well. “We still have seven more races to go this year first and we have various things we like to try for next year as well,” said Yamamoto. “Next year we will try to fight for the championship and have a good ending to our story. “For next year, we will not reduce any people from our project. We are going to develop more. And we will make the biggest effort in order to win as much as possible. “We will just keep pushing till the end.” https://the-race.com/formula-1/honda-open-to-facilitating-red-bull-engine-project-post-2021/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=website&utm_campaign=SocialSnap
I was just discussing the possibility of this with a friend. It would still take a mega-investment of the part of Red Bull. But, they wouldn't be relegated to customer status. I wonder if they would have to obey the customer rules and supply other teams?
Red Bull are being given an opportunity to become a "complete" constructor like {Ferrari, Renault, and Mercedes} My bet is they turn this down.
This does not fit the mode for Redbull. They build chassis and integrate a given motor. Low cost and low risk compared to other teams. I can see Redbull evaluating its participation beyond 26 with this opportunity to become or not become a motor producer.
The customer rules are only enforced if another team can't get an engine from anyone else. This is normally quite unlikely to happen (hence why Ferrari and Mercedes are quite happy to supply everyone, except to Red Bull). I just don't see it financially viable to take over the Honda engines and start developing their own.
