It's reality, clear and simple. Unless they find a way where suddenly all teams have access to a huge amount of capital to keep themselves going, F1 will soon be left with a handful of teams, none who will be very interested spending 100s of millions (or any money) to keep going. That handful soon becomes none after that. Look at LMP1. Manufacturers got fed up with spending stupid money trying to win, and in what seemed like a snap, the class died. The only reason Toyota raced last season is because they still didn't win it and wanted to win their consolidation prize. You can't say that those that can't afford F1 shouldn't be in the series. Not anymore. There is no one to replace them. Big teams aren't interested in running 3 car teams. FIA/F1 promised F1 would be cheaper with the hybrid engines, instead costs skyrocketed. Whereas before teams where managing alright, now they're bleeding cash. Pre-2014 we had V8 engines, which where pretty much identical to the units introduced in 2006. Very little development. Did anyone seriously complain and say ''well the big problem with F1 is, their V8 engines don't change and aren't developed!''. **** no. The biggest complaints about the engines where, if any, that they weren't V10. Even so, most just moaned about the aero. No one cares about the ancient engines. And then in 2014, the revolutionary engines had a supposed engine freeze in place! Where's the development I ask you? The only reason we had any was because 1 team got it right and the rest where so far behind they may as well have been in a different series. If engines where largely on par we wouldn't have had any development. Stick modern V10/12 3.5 litre in the car, much to the same rules as V8 era...so fixed engine angle, weight, rev limit, materials used and all that. Watch the per unit cost drop to 250K. See how many complain? Those that want to see future tech and development should watch Formula E, as that's supposedly the future.
Formula E is merely a glimpse of what F1 could become, but it's very badly presented, I think and doesn't showcase at all the potential. As for the rest of your dicourse, do not forget that 6 teams out of 10 are engine customers who receive their power units at fixed cost. So they can factor this expense in their budget from the outset, but most of their running expenses is just trying to keep up with the aero. Hybrid power units are blamed for the Financial woes among small teams, but no one seems to want restriction on aero development. Why? I cannot understand. Why a small Customer team needs a staff of 200 or 300, a team of arodynamicists and a Wind tunnel? It doesn't make sense. Gene Haas has shown the way for small independent teams (you say nobody wants to join) : "Don't try to reinvent the Wheel", he said, " but outsource as much as you are allowed to". That seems clever to me, and I like that approach.. His team finished 5th in the WCC, no? Instead, we have teams like Williams that try to fabricate everything in house, at huge cost.
Gene buys as much as he can from Ferrari. And you're complaining about lack of development? He literally buys outdated Ferrari parts. It works, granted. Yes teams buy at fixed cost. Cost for engines where supposed to be halved from what it used to be in V8 era. Instead cost skyrocketed. There is a want for reduced aero but the big teams don't. Guess what, back in the V10 and V8 era, those small teams also bought engines at fixed cost. V8 era an engine was around 200K, budget for entire season on engines (remember 8 engines per season) was around £4 million. Now to lease 3 engines per season is £15m+. And these engines aren't pushed! They're in conserving mode 95% of the time because they only get 3 for a 20 race season! Imagine teams costs if they could take 8 or so a season....you're talking over 40 million a year in engines alone. Haas is the only new team in F1. Since Hybrid started we lost Virgin/Marussia, Caterham. Force India and Lotus both went belly up. F1 went the hybrid route, they claimed it was for reduced cost and manufacturers would come and join F1. Neither happened. Lets face it, the hybrid engine formula is a massive failure whichever way you look at it. Time for F1 to accept defeat and focus on being a sustainable sport again.
Where did I complain about lack of development? Haas has understood that as a Customer team he has no chance of beating the works team, so he read attentively the rule book and planned according. Haas has shown the way to go and frankly he shames teams like Williams and McLaren. If the hybrid formula is abandonned, it will be seen as a step backwards, whichever way you look at it, and some of the car manufacturers actually involved will leave, bar Ferrari, of course. I'm pretty sure Mercedes and Renault wil, possibly Honda even. Straightaway that will leave a huge vacuum in F1, with £ billions of yearly investment leaving the arena. I told you Mercedes invest in the region of $600M per year in F1 through different channels (F1 team budget, subsidised engine supply to customers, Financial backing to the German GP, track advertising and shares cost in some Far East GPs, etc ...) . Renault is in F1 mostly for R&D now; that's the selling point to its shareholders. I'm pretty sure it's the same with Honda, they stand the course against huge adversity, because they learn from it.
You weren't there Sid, it was a farce and a slap in the face to all who attended. Absolutely disgraceful.
exactly. And just look a step beyond the hybrids at Formula E. In its fifth season the racing is simply mundane, the performance horrible, and the packaging laughable. Yet new constructors are flocking to it because it's so inexpensive (yes, it's a spec series but you get my point).
Late 80s we took turbos off. moving suspensions banned TC, ABS, stability control, all banned. Skirts and clever aero, banned. None of this is an issue....but going back to NA engines (again) is an issue somehow? Please.
The atmo engine had it. A turbo engine is far more efficient, that's why that technology is widespread everywhere in the automotive world. It allows to reduce capacity, increase power and torque and reduce fuel consumption. It's a no brainer !! Most of the car makers adopted the turbo, even Ferrari! Why should they abandon that just for the sake of making noise ?
See I can compromise easy here. To keep cost down (and I know I'm repeating myself here): keep the Current base V6, take off all ancillaries, and it's fancy turbo. Slap on either 1 massive turbo or 2 smaller turbos, all commercial turbos (no shortage anyways). Personally I'd do away with the entire hybrid setup but am flexible if a basic KERS system like we used to have is used. Manual engagement of the KERS only, no fancy mappings. Just a button that unleashed X amount of energy and that's it, maximum of X per lap as well. The base V6 costs **** all. The turbo(s) will cost practically zero. Up the boost, allow more fuel, 1200-1400 bhp for a fraction of the price. 10 engines per season, 1 turbo per weekend. Refueling to return. Simplify the aerodynamics. Cost goes way down, to a third easy. Racing excitement goes through the roof: Closer following, no more conserving the engine, no more managing everything....just flat out racing, minimal conserving and so on. Not a soul will complain about engine noise (it'll be good enough anyways), as the racing will be too exciting.
I am not saying your recipe is bad, but it's unrealistic, I think. You can always submit your proposal to Liberty and the FIA, and see if they accept it. I doubt any car manufacturer would take that on board, because there is no technical benefit from such rules. The engines aren't what cost the most; it's the aero race that are crippling F1.
FIA/Liberty needs to learn to not be afraid of the manufacturers. Call their bluff. I can't see Ferrari leaving over it. Nor Red bull. So at worst F1 loses Mercedes, and quite possibly their engines....guess what, Renault, Honda and Ferrari are there with a whole range of engines. I agree aero is another massive problem area cost wise....as I keep saying.
That is all you have now. The mid and back markers offer the illusion of a race. Simply they are in the way and offer “passing” for the top 3. The series is already 6 car grid in effect. The series is paralyzed
To be honest, in my 57 years of following F1, I cannot remember a time when all the cars on the grid had equal chances! There is always a good percentage of the grid that participates with no chance of winning. It usually boils down to 2 or 3 teams and a handfull of drivers fighting for the title. F1 has been like that since the begining. I think some people are chasing an illusion if they think that parity between teams is possible.
Adopted is a strange way of saying, they were forced by regulations and had no choice but to go turbo, despite their desire to keep their engines NA.
Absolutely right.... as if Ferrari were chuffed to bits building big beautiful V8 and V12s but were ecstatic to be limited to tiny little V6 vacuum cleaner engines.... the engines today are a travesty compared to real race engines of the recent past. It proves that technology and political correctness is ****ing boring and not always a step forwards
I was talking about street cars production. Very few car manufacturers haven't "adopted" turbo, because it's just a clever technology. A turbo engine is just more efficient than an atmo one.
I know you were talking about street cars, and so was I. Ferrari, among others, didn't choose or adopt turbo because its clever. It was forced upon them due to regulations and I think you know that. Porsche, thankfully has been able to keep their GT cars NA a bit longer. They understand that enthusiasts and drivers of special sports cars tend to prefer NA high revving engines because its part of the feel and experience, not straight line speed or getting an extra 2 mpg. Just to emphasize the Porsche example. They could have easily "adopted" a turbo in their 991 generation of GT cars from 2014 to present. But they still had a choice. They haven't been forced, just yet due to the quantity of cars they produce, to switch to turbo. So after listening to their customer base and having some internal discussion they decided, because they had a choice, to say, we don't want some "clever" turbo in our special GT cars. We want to give our customers what they want and what we want. So these cars will stay NA for as long as possible. And while we are at it, we're going to bring back some "old technology" and offer the manual transmission as an option. The supply doesn't even come close to meeting the demand for these cars.
A friend has a Valkyrie on order. With an NA V12 it will be one of the most exciting and cutting edge cars on the planet. We are already planning for its very first private spin around the block. I would rather watch a grid full of VK's each Sunday than the current F1 vacuum cleaners. And let's not get started on FE....
Heard that Cosworth NA V-12 at full revs on youtube. Makes the current F1 engines sound like **** and that produces 1000hp at 10k rpm at a fraction of the cost of these current hybrids on a production car with emissions regs and cat converters
Yes it will make F1 cars look and sound rather third rate. I must admit, we may not be able to perform a doughnut in the VK but will give it a damn good try !
I don't know where you live, but it's strange that you write that. After checking, I find that Porsche has switched to turbo power for most of its range sometime ago now. The Carrera, for example, came down from 3.6L to 3L with the adoption of the turbo, and the power went up on the Carrera, Carrera 4, Carrera S (370hp), Carrera GTS, Carrera GTS4 (420hp). The CarreraTurbo (540hp), Turbo S (580hp) and GT2 RS (700hp) are also turbos on a 3.8L block. It looks that only the GT3 RS has kept a 3.8L atmospheric engine because it's the basic form the GT3 competition model where the "Balance of Power" is more favourable to atmo engines. The GT3 RS is also LESS powerful at only 520hp. But I read that for next year, Porsche will also use a turbo on its GT3 RS, to keep up with the other cars in that category (i.e. Ferrari 488, Ford GT, Audi R8, Aston Martin, Mercedes-AMG GT, McLaren 720, etc...). The Boxter and Cayman also switched from flat 6-cyl atmo to flat 4-cyl turbo a couple of years ago and gained close to 50hp in the process. The Macan, Cayenne and Panamera also have turbo engines.
