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Horner: F1 should be polar opposite of Formula E

Discussion in 'F1' started by Bas Jaski, Aug 9, 2017.

  1. DF1

    DF1 F1 World Champ
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    I love all these idea's they continue to not implement. I have zero faith about the future of F1 and better racing. They've done nothing and the large makers will rule the day. The motors will still be hybrid and they went with more aero even after being warned they shouldnt.
     
  2. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Yep. Im especially pissed off about the aero. "ooh we'll put in delta shape front wings, cars will be able to follow each other so close, it'll be epic racing!" Meanwhile cars are more affected by dirty air than ever before....

    I'm by no means a qualified aerodynamicist but even I predicted this when they announced the rules. If I can, F1 rule makers surely have to also!

    It's bonkers. And it angers me., because I know the fix is relatively simple, and nothing has been done about it prior to finalizing the 2018 rules, even though they had the time to act!
     
  3. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    In the next engine formula starting from 2021, everything is possible, and new engine builders may arrive in F1.

    Although it doesn't seem that the FIA and the interested parties as in a hurry to decide the rules; we are 3 years away from the end of the present rules, and there is a sense of urgency there.
     
  4. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    It seems to me that the engine design is kept under control, but the aero are given more freedom of development.
     
  5. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    #80 PSk, Aug 17, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
    Bas,

    I agree with your view of DRS assisted passing, but I do not and never will agree that pitstops aid racing on the track. I watched great racing before Bernie decided that pitstops would make his TV show more interesting; epic racing before pitstops actually, bloody great period.

    BTW regarding aero, as F1 stopped being a sport when Bernie showed those involved they could become rich due to F1, we now have large aero departments that of course don't want to become unnecessary, so they will be fighting tooth and nail ...

    Before Bernie, those involved were passionate racing nutters, now we have the soulless "I want to make money" wankers that dilute the whole worlds population.

    Money IS the root of all evil, even in F1. Thanks you utter ****en wanker of all wankers, Bernie. That is why he is so short, wore himself out playing with himself as he reminded himself our awesome he is and how he is the greatest humanbeing on the planet ... wish he had slipped and knocked some sense into himself ;)
    Pete
     
  6. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    Bernie transformed F1 from a sport to a business.

    Now Liberty has to chose between keeping it as a technical contest, or making it an entertainment.

    My guess is that it will be the later, if they have their way.
     
  7. Beau365

    Beau365 Formula 3

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    #82 Beau365, Aug 17, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Even though he was winning, Michael was always candid :)
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  8. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

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    I see both sides of the argument regarding refueling. I fully see your point, and I think F1 missed a trick for at the very least one season in recent times, by not allowing races with zero stops. The medium and harder tires can easily do it and practically have...we've seen enough times in recent past of drivers who changed their tires on the very first lap doing the entire race (minus 1 lap) on a set of Soft tires...


    However, assume we go to NA engines again, this would mean very heavy cars again, easily 150kg of fuel on board. And fuel saving. I can see both being interesting, and I definitely see your point also that some positions would always be gained under pitstops. So long it's offset with plenty of true track overtakes I'm fine with that, however.
     
  9. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    You give here a very good reason to keep hybrid power units in F1, and never go back to inefficient multi-cylinder atmospheric engines !!
     
  10. Beau365

    Beau365 Formula 3

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    Heavy is GOOD. Ensures a proper workout for drivers. We want highly paid athletes to work up a sweat, no?
     
  11. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Eh? What do you think hybrid system weighs?

    Actually no...lower weight = higher speed = higher G force = harder workout ;)
     
  12. Beau365

    Beau365 Formula 3

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    Did you see Senna being lifted from a heavy McLaren sweaty and exhausted ?
     
  13. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    We are not talking about the weight of an hybrid power unit against an atmo multi cylinder engine here, but the reduced amount of fuel used now compared to the larger volume only 10 or 15 years ago.
    Have I not heard that it is a saving of 75kg ?
    Honestly, trying to convince potential engine builders that they will have to go back to old technology with higher fuel consumption will be a hard sell, IMO.
     
  14. TifosiUSA

    TifosiUSA F1 Veteran

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    Drop all the hybrid garbage and go back to a NA V10 and the cars would still be lighter even with the increased fuel requirements. There is a reason these cars are the heaviest ever. So the fuel weight argument is, quite frankly, terrible. You can move the goalposts all you want but at the end of the day we're talking about the overall weight of the cars.

    Besides, the amount of fuel that would be used by a new NA engine is exaggerated. We wouldn't suddenly go back to 2005 electronics, engine mapping, injector, fuel, oil, etc etc etc technology...they would be much more efficient now.
     
  15. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

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    +1 on all fronts.
     
  16. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

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    It's a saving of 50KG, but it's artificial. They run for long period in fuel saving modes just to get there.

    As TifosiUSA already mentioned, you're comparing it to 10-15 year old technology. The V8's weren't developed save for some mapping. Fuel Injectors, mapping, direct injection, lighter weight engine parts all have made tremendous strides forwards since.

    I'm convinced that a modern V10 3 liter engine vs the last 2005 one will be at the very least 20% more efficient, and that's a very conservative figure.

    Convincing engine builders to stick 100s of millions in an overly complicated engine however, that was easy to do, and has been an enormous success. Wait...
     
  17. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini Formula 3
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    Nice thread. Bring back some screamers... Fifty gals. (4mpg is fair mileage for a race car) fuel max. (if restricted on board is required, bring back refueling); 3 litre build what you like(x cyls.); and away we go. :)
     
  18. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    If you think that an atmospheric 3l V10 is going to be more fuel efficient than an hybrid power unit with a small turbo engine , you go against the trend, and the conclusion of most automotive engineers in the last decade.
    Why do you think the car industry has been investing so much in hybrid technology and turbo engines?
    Most the the car makers have been able to downsize, achieve more power and better fuel efficiency by ditching atmo engines, and going hybrid.

    I know there is a brigade that wants noise at all cost, so you champion the multi cylinders atmo engines of years bygone, but I'm pretty sure they won't get their way by going backwards. Like one says. "The genie is out of the bottle now"
     
  19. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini Formula 3
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    #94 lorenzobandini, Aug 19, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
    Treading ever so carefully, so as not to offend or insult, with all due respect...where does BJ state, or even imply, such? 'Post # will do. :)
     
  20. daytona355

    daytona355 F1 World Champ

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    Exactly, who, outside of the FIA, are worried whether the racing cars in F1 get 4mpg or 100mpg........ I sure as hell don't. I wanna see racing, hear noise, experience the suspense and anxiety of topsy turvy racing, with drivers pushing to the limits as much as they can, with no regard for fuel nor tyres nor parts expiring. We have a hundred formulas that have strict bull**** rules, let F1 truly demonstrate the fastest racers on the planet.

    **** me, if I race a Prius in my Bentley speed I'd **** him in a race over 50 miles, and do the same over 200, provided I could refuel. But one of those **** boxes would beat me every time over 100 miles if I couldn't refuel, even though my car would smash the crap out of them on acceleration and top speeds in every gear...... F1 today is false and boring..... sort it out
     
  21. daytona355

    daytona355 F1 World Champ

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    Anyway, proofs in the pudding, formula (bor)e has been around a while, yet no one watches it except the odd pc plonker.......F1 is still the series to follow for general motorsport fans. Doesnt look like many people give a **** about silent slow motion racing to me
     
  22. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

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    VS 2005 V10. I did state that pretty damn clear did I not?
     
  23. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    IMO, abandoning the hybrid technology and going back to atmospheric engines would be a step backwards.

    F1 would cease to be the pinnacle of motor racing if it jettisons all the progress achieved since then.

    I hope it never happens.
     
  24. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

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    #99 Igor Ound, Aug 19, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
    Imo for F1 to survive, especially now that FE and later roborace will have their own market relevance, they need to do completely without electronics. Only that way they'll have their own appeal. Everything has to be mechanical, including flywheels instead of batteries and only passive aero/traction systems should be allowed. The cars would be fantastically complex, great to look at and to listen to, require much more ingenuity, and drivers would make the difference again.

    F1 should become the America's cup to formula E's jet ski races
     
  25. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Just because it's less complicated doesn't mean it won't be any good.

    FE should be where manufacturers explore battery technology. F1 should be about racing.

    LMP1 was a combination of the two but killed itself off.

    Technically you should be annoyed that F1 got rid of ABS, TC, Stability control, CVT gearboxes, adjustable suspension and so on, as that all is progress, too.
     

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