Horrible Experience with Norwood Autocraft! Beware of Bob Norwood | Page 24 | FerrariChat

Horrible Experience with Norwood Autocraft! Beware of Bob Norwood

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by Schulz308, Sep 1, 2016.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. ATSAaron

    ATSAaron Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 1, 2004
    1,120
    Shady Shores, TX
    Full Name:
    Aaron Bunch
    If someone requested cash why would you bring a cashier's check instead of cash? Cashier's checks have become the most common scam over the last decade. No one feels safe accepting a cashier's check anymore.
     
  2. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 8, 2004
    1,073
    He was AOK with a cashier's check on Monday when I showed it to him, in fact the first thing he asked me was "it's a cashier's check right"?. But he would not release the car regardless. Gave me some story about he was not expecting me (I had told his lawyer Friday I would be there Monday with a cashier's check), he said he has kidney stones and is on medication and was feeling out of it, and he wanted to bring the car back to his shop first, and the car would not start due to fouled plugs and a dead battery (strange that he knew that if he was not expecting me and the car was in storage). He had plenty of energy to give me the
    "Norwood shuffle" though .. a long and incoherent technical dissertation about my car, Motec maps, auxiliary vacuum pumps, injectors, MAFs, wheel alignment, other cars, and how his vendors were to blame for some of the issues with the car that went on for at least 3 hours. Perhaps he thought I was going to leave the check with him and come back for my car when he was good and ready. Been burned once that way already except last time I wired the money believing that was it (finally!) and then was told to send another $10K if I wanted to see my car again.

    On Monday night when I got home, I got an email from his "lawyer" with a very lengthy release attached that I was supposed to sign. On Tuesday morning I got a text from Norwood saying he would not accept a cashier's check "because they could be cancelled" and that I had to sign the release as well. That is still their position, although from past experience their position changes with the weather.

    A phone call to the bank will tell you whether the check is good. I accept cashier's checks in my business routinely, never had a problem.

    As I told the lawyer, if I am full of it as you claim, and you guys have the facts on your side, why do you need a release?
     
  3. 308 milano

    308 milano F1 Veteran

    Jan 15, 2007
    5,257
    Montana
    Full Name:
    Kim
    IMO sounds like the car is not as far along as you were led to believe. No other reason for you not to be able to see it.
     
  4. randkin

    randkin Formula 3
    BANNED

    Aug 2, 2015
    1,497
    Somis, CA
    Full Name:
    Randy
    Russ at this point I think you should give some serious thought about getting your own lawyer to completely represent your interest. I would normally be one of the last folks to suggest a lawyer but I think you are at that point just to review the releases let alone all t
    Well actually three, the truth usually resides somewhere in the middle of both sides from my experience.
     
  5. randkin

    randkin Formula 3
    BANNED

    Aug 2, 2015
    1,497
    Somis, CA
    Full Name:
    Randy
    Russ at this point I think you should give some serious thought about getting your own lawyer to completely represent your interest. I would normally be one of the last folks to suggest a lawyer but I think you are at that point just to review the releases let alone all the other issues about the car repair etc.
     
  6. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 8, 2004
    1,073
    I have been asking to see the car, or to have my expert see the car, since early Feb. He won't let me see it. I last saw it back in late Sept. At that time, there were issues, some major. He told me it was done back in Dec. when I settled the account.

    On Monday, I think he thought I was going to leave the check with him and come back at his convenience to fetch the car. Provided I signed away my rights in the interim. You got me once Bob, not going to trick me again. When I tired of his blather and gathered up my papers to leave, he shuffled his desk and said "where's the check?" I told him I would return with the check when he was ready to release the car.
     
  7. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 4, 2001
    35,286
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Tommy
    I don't understand why the cashiers check isn't being channeled thru his attorney.

    He gets it. Sits on it until it is clear and you get your car.

    Unless his attorney doesn't care about his law license, he is nt going to pocket the money and tell you otherwise.

    Why does this have to be that complicated?

    (and that isn't a question directed at you, it's just in general.)
     
  8. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 8, 2004
    1,073
    Well you would think the lawyer would have suggested that but not. The sum is substantial and it's not reasonable to expect someone to show up with a briefcase full of cash, or to pay and then wait for a green light when there is a risk that they will just move the goalposts as they have done in the past.

    But it is complicated, for there is another stumbling block: I have not seen car since late Sept so even if it was all done as part of a legal agreement, I would be paying money and getting a pig in a poke with no recourse. Both sides are aware of a number of unresolved problems with the work that was done, and also some damage to the vehicle. And there is probably more stuff that I am not even aware of. For example, it has recently been disclosed that the doors no longer latch, the new battery is kaput, and not only will the motor not idle smoothly below 1500 rpm, the motor no longer runs at all. Next thing it will be the rats ate the wiring or the newly upholstered chairs.
     
  9. KKSBA

    KKSBA F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 31, 2003
    14,921
    SBarbara-La Jolla CA
    Full Name:
    KKSBA
    Sounds like discovery, depositions, lawyers, and a judge are in order...
     
  10. ATSAaron

    ATSAaron Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 1, 2004
    1,120
    Shady Shores, TX
    Full Name:
    Aaron Bunch
    Doors don't latch? What exactly did you request to have done? My understanding is that you bought a project from someone else and brought it to Norwood to finish. Did Norwood install the doors or latches? Was the car running and driving enough before you delivered it to Norwood that you know there was no issue with the latches? I've got a 308. Latches break.

    Did Norwood build or provide the motor? Or was it delivered to him with the car, non running and in unknown condition?

    And a dead battery on a Ferrari that has sat for five months? That's normal.

    Aaron
     
  11. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 8, 2004
    1,073
    #586 Russ Gould, May 19, 2018
    Last edited: May 19, 2018
    Rather than engage in a piecemeal q&a I will, in good time, lay out the entire saga. Sounds like Aaron has heard the Norwood version of the story probably from his partner Tim, who knows nothing other than what he has heard from Norwood. The work was done in Norwood's shop, not Tim's. Maybe that's where the car is. Aaron, have you seen it there? Anyone?

    Yes I did supply the motor, with the original ECUs, wiring harnesses etc. First thing he did was tell me to take those home and sell them. But as an example of what I am dealing with, I paid Norwood to inspect the motor esp. to check for common 355 problems and required maintenance before I gave him the go-ahead to do any further work including installing same in the car. I am not that stupid. He sent me a photo of the oil filter cut open, said the manifolds were clean internally, attributed the leakdown problems in the right bank to carbon buildup, pronounced it good and put it in the car. Now that there are problems, Norwood has at various time attributed the rough idle to 1. valve train timing (something he was supposed to check but when I asked him why he did not check it, despite having the valve covers off and doing a leakdown, he said "it's a big job"); then 2. manifold leaks (a "common problem" according to Norwood but not common enough for him to do a smoke test apparently); and now most recently, 3. a weak vacuum signal from the individual throttle bodies, a design feature of this motor, leading to a "small map", which can be fixed he says (at my cost of course) by going back to MAFs as Ferrari intended, except for one problem: the Motec he insisted on installing, over my objections, can only take input from one MAF and this is a dual MAF motor. (Norwood is a Motec dealer. ) Zero ownership of any of this from his side. He wants more money, he will not honor his normal warranty, and at the same time he wants to deny me any legal recourse.

    There is more of the same to come. Lots more. Will get to that next week sometime.
     
  12. ATSAaron

    ATSAaron Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 1, 2004
    1,120
    Shady Shores, TX
    Full Name:
    Aaron Bunch
    Why would anyone do free labor on a motor you provided?

    Aaron
     
    Jakuzzi likes this.
  13. the_stig

    the_stig F1 Rookie

    Sep 19, 2005
    3,477
    How this isn't in the hands of a competent attorney and before a court is completely beyond me. You have way more patience and trust than I would. Undisclosed location? What kind of B$ is that? Mechanic's lien is fine, but you've a right to know where your property is and to be able to inspect it.
     
    Cirorsi, KKSBA, Jakuzzi and 2 others like this.
  14. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 8, 2004
    1,073
    Free? Did you miss the part where I said I paid him to inspect the motor? I should add that I paid him puhlenty to get that motor installed, running and tuned, that was the core of what he contracted to do. I could have purchased a good 355 that ran right for what I paid him.

    Great setup question Aaron, thanks. Wait until you see the invoices. Norwood bills for EVERYTHING, and I mean EV..ER..Y ..THING.
     
  15. ATSAaron

    ATSAaron Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 1, 2004
    1,120
    Shady Shores, TX
    Full Name:
    Aaron Bunch
    I know. I've seen and paid his invoices before. They are extremely detailed. Is there something on the invoice that you paid for, but didn't get? You post earlier detailed exactly what he did to inspect the motor. Now you are claiming he needs to do additional work to the motor. Is that already on the invoice? Or is it work you want done for free?

    Aaron
     
  16. randkin

    randkin Formula 3
    BANNED

    Aug 2, 2015
    1,497
    Somis, CA
    Full Name:
    Randy
    Aaron, How about waiting to hear Russ's whole side of the story before becoming so critical of his position? You think you already knows Bob's side but we have only heard a fragment of Russ's side. As we all know there are three sides to every story, the third side each reader will do his own interpretation for that side to decide what they feel is "right"..

    I don't know the whole side of either position but I do know if I were Russ would have got an attorney long before this to deal with Bob's attorney and all of his realeases. It appears Russ has been pretty long suffering at my current stage of knowledge about the situation. Also Russ is not some rookie to the site who has never posted before and just trying to grind Norwood Autocraft and damage his reputation. Let him unwind his side fully next week before you jump all over him. What do you think?
     
  17. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 8, 2004
    1,073
    Yes there were items on the invoices that I did not get. There were items on the invoices that were billed at qty 4 and only 2 were provided (the other two were for a similar car he was building on spec for his own account.) There were items on the invoices that I believe related to another customer's car entirely. There were items on the invoices that made no sense at all. There were items on the invoices that were rework to fix Norwood's errors and omissions .. an awful lot of the work had to be done twice or even three times before he got it right. Some of it is still not right. There were 17 hour days on the invoices. There were items on the invoices that were quoted at one price and billed at another. And there was a lot of stuff on the invoices that I can't tell whether I got, either because the description was a terse single word (for example, the line item "Heater" was repeated many times for days and weeks on end totaling an absurd number of hours), and/or because I have not been able to inspect the work/see the car since the work was done (lots of single word "A/C" for example ... I think the A/C work qualifies for the Guinness Book of Records). I can't tell whether I got the $2000 of generic "shop supplies" he billed, on top of lots and lots of mickey mouse line items that look a lot like supplies to me. Some of this he corrected when I objected during the project. He blamed his accountant's gender. I got to the point where I told him I would not even look at the invoices until he had scrubbed them. Even after he assured me he had scrubbed them, there were lots of "anomalies" that I queried, among other things, back in Feb. in writing when Norwood would not meet me face to face to discuss the invoices. Instead he told me to submit my questions in writing. To this day, he has not responded specifically to my written questions and objections to the invoices. The only response I got was a paragraph blaming the car. That really pissed me off because when he wanted the go-ahead to do the work, he told me the car was "a good one". Instead of responding to my questions and objections, he has tried to add charges to the invoices for parts that I supplied. And despite all of these shenanigans, he thinks it's OK to charge me storage while I wait for him to respond to my questions and objections, while he turns up his nose at a perfectly good cashier's check after I drove a long way to get it to him and to watch my car being loaded on a flatbed (not convenient sorry), and while he holds out for a total release from his normal warranty and any legal action from my side.

    On the other hand there were items he did to the car that he didn't charge me for. Mutilating my freshly restored console for example.

    Keep them coming Aaron.
     
  18. arizonaitalian

    arizonaitalian F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Oct 29, 2010
    19,897
    Wyoming
    Sorry, that is a total joke. If you have any sort of real business, you don't require your customers to bring suitcases full of money to pay for work. WTF? Talk about a red flag! Business that only will accept cash? That's usually an illegal business. If someone insists upon cash for a deal that is more than a very small amount of money, my first response is hell no, and my second is to call the cops, the IRS and my lawyer.

    You may not see it, but your comments here are so biased that they are not credible. If you care about your credibility, you should let Russ (and or the other party) tell the story. You have zero firsthand info and an obvious bias.
     
    randkin likes this.
  19. ATSAaron

    ATSAaron Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 1, 2004
    1,120
    Shady Shores, TX
    Full Name:
    Aaron Bunch
    Norwood has 2 or three technicians at his shop. If more than one work on the car at the same time then 17 hours is easily possible. Also I have first hand seen Bob put in 17 hour days, but that was many years ago.

    This project wasn't a basic service job. I saw it first hand sometime last year. It required a lot of fabrication. Wasn't the entire 355 rear subframe and suspension installed? This isn't a routine job and in my opinion it's understandable why some jobs had to be repeated. The engine was in and out of my 308 at least twice during my personal build.

    I don't know when the relationship with you and Bob fell apart, but when he was working on the car last year his entire team was excited about it and proud of their work.

    Aaron
     
  20. ATSAaron

    ATSAaron Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 1, 2004
    1,120
    Shady Shores, TX
    Full Name:
    Aaron Bunch
    I'm pretty timid about payment methods. I'm a small business owner and was actually ripped off for $2300 just last night. The customer waited until he had tracking information, then filed a credit card chargeback against me. When I contacted him he assured me it was all a mistake and he would take care of it.....nope, that was just trying to buy more time to get the items. The $2300 was yanked from my account even though I have emails saying it was all a mistake and he didn't mean to dispute anything. Payment scams are rampant in my industry (automotive performance).

    As far as Russ's story I don't know the whole story, even Russ hasn't told us the whole story. Most of my comments are based on the information Russ has provided.

    Aaron
     
  21. Cigarzman

    Cigarzman F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Rob, make that three sides. His , hers and the truth. Best , Kirk.
     
  22. Bluebottle

    Bluebottle F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 15, 2012
    7,698
    Newbury, Berkshire, England
    Full Name:
    John
    Aaron, are you by any chance related to Big Red 95?;)
     
    Jana likes this.
  23. ATSAaron

    ATSAaron Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 1, 2004
    1,120
    Shady Shores, TX
    Full Name:
    Aaron Bunch
    No. I don't know who Big Red is. As I said in this same thread years ago I suspect he is one of the techs that work for Bob. I have probably met him at some point but never asked who Big Red is.

    It's no secret that I know Bob. I visit him about twice per year. On my last two trips (March 18, and sometime last year, I suspect August 2017). I saw Russ's car in 2017 and after Russ's cryptic removal of any endorsement earlier this year I asked a third party who I thought might know.

    Aaron
     
  24. Statler

    Statler F1 World Champ

    Jun 7, 2011
    17,389
    never understand why people (professionals at this level of life) try to hash our crap on a forum. Go to Court, win or don't, and post up the results.

    on the other hand, some people keep finding their own luck.
     
    Smiles likes this.
  25. daytona355

    daytona355 F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Mar 25, 2009
    12,655
    London
    Full Name:
    Sid Korshak
    Christ Russ. Wish I was over there, I’d go get your car for you, and Norwood would be repaying you his fees. Sounds like a real conman. How can any business justify HIDING your property from you. Could you call the cops and have them obtain the cars location.? He may claim you owe an invoice, but as you have the cashiers check made out to cover that, surely they will act to do something about it, as it’s theft as far as I’m concerned.
     

Share This Page