Clax "2-year waits? Ha ha. Those will soon be a thing of the past. In case you haven't noticed, it's not just Lambo that are building cars that are competing with (and taking customers from) Ferrari. It's Porsche, Aston, Mercedes (yes, Mercedes), Ford (ouch) and others. And besides, only a moron would ever pay more than MSRP for anything, whether it's a Ferrari or a Ford GT." Don't let your feelings about which car you'd rather own get in the way of the facts. Lambo is finding more buyers however not enough as the price you can buy one for shows. New 360's still sell for msrp. G's and Murcies don't. There is already a 2 year wait for a 430 unless you've got a real connection. A buyer with no connections can buy a G or a Murcie today for under msrp. That is simply not true for a 430 or, even a five year old design, a new 360. I agree that a Murcie is a lot more car than a 360 and at 200k for a perfect 02 with a few miles it's a much better value but that does not change the facts. More buyers want Ferrari's than Lambo's and IMO that will not change. The 430 is also IMO pretty cool with it's steering wheel mounted dynamic control and electronic diffs. and both the G and the Lambo could afford to shed a few lbs. HP past a point on the street isn't as important as hp/lbs. IMO: More HP. for lbs. ="s more fun. Best
I bought a 996TT over a 360 Modena and also I will Buy a Gallardo by next feb. instead of a F340, Ferrari is a great name on any product even on tomato sauce but that alone with dealerships breaking their word to me and scratching my cars during services and charging me money while fixing a recall its way too much for me to turn one eye blind.
Saying Ferrari made the 430 as a result of the G is incorrect, Ferrari always makes performance improvements in all of its cars from evolution and new technology, if Ferrari has any real competition against the 430 its the Ford Gt which is clearly in high demand and is on waiting lists also, another reason the execs at Audi/Lambo must be dissappointed viewing the big success of a Ford just jumping into the exotic car market. Of course I value performance, but if thats all I cared about I would have a new modified Vette or a supercharged Viper or a new Ferrari, thats not all I want from a car though, what I want is something thats fun to drive, looks beautiful and I can work on myself and that has a direct connection to when Enzo Ferrari was alive which is why I doubt I will ever own a Ferrari made past the late 80s. Racing success has always sold cars, which is something Henry Ford found out early and is why the Gt can just jump in the market and have waiting lists from its race heritage, something Ford learned the hard way from the ill fated Pantera which failed,when Dodge came out with the Viper they soon began racing it also to improve sales, so racing heritage is important and does matter, something Lambo has never taken seriously. As for the G car, I think it will be short lived a few more years then production will stop, perhaps sooner when Audi dumps Lambo.
If Ferrari built a car that I felt was worth a 2-year wait, I'd sign up gladly. New 360's for MSRP? Not from what I have seen. I am glad more buyers want Ferrari's. Makes things easier for someone who wants a Gallardo or Murci. Evo ranked the 430 and Gallardo dead even, and yet, the 430 is hyped beyond belief. Hilarious. As far as that "not changing", it is changing. Slowly. And it will continue to change. As long as other manufacturers are building better products all the time, it will continue to change. I am sure that in the 70's and 80's people said that GM will always sell more cars than Toyota, and that will never change. Ask that same question today, and maybe you'll get a different answer. Having tons of marketing support and a loyal following does not make the cars better. I would own a Ferrari today if I thought it was the best car. Of course, not counting the Enzo. Short of the Enzo, nothing inspires my interest in the Ferrari line-up. I agree about the hp/lbs argument. Raising the horsepower of the G-car improves the hp/lbs ratio. Any way you cut it, adding hp, or reducing weight, will acheive that goal. So, Lambo is acheiving that goal. I'd rather see the G and M maintain the AWD, and add sick amounts of horsepower. The AWD experience is incredible.
The Corvette ZR1 had waiting lists and sold for above MSRP. For a while. Enter the Ford GT. Take a look at the market in 6-8 months. Hype now, reality later. I never said performance was all that mattered. It's the whole package. For a company that wins at F1, wouldn't you expect performance to be one of the highest priorities? Your comments about the G Car and Audi dumping Lambo clearly illustrate your lack of objective viewpoint. I am more interested to hear from people with an objective look at things.
My comments are objective even though they are not what you want to hear, the G has only been out a year and it's not selling that well, as a cars production cycle continues demand slows. How long can a company lose money on a product and stay in business or keep infusing outside capital in it to support it? This is very similar to the Jalpa when it came out with similar sales results, Lambo lost money on it also which resulted in the company being sold again. The Corvette is totally different situation than the Gt, most people could not tell the difference between the ZR1 which was 1/3 more in cost than a regular Vette, Chevys mistake, the GT is a true exotic, I am sure demand will slow but it will still be a big success unlike the ZR1.
Clax It's not just in F1 where Ferrari is winning. Look at the FIA results I posted. The Murcie GTR wasn't only destroyed by MC12's. It was destroyed by 360 NGT's, 550 NGT's, 575 NGT's as well as P cars and Saleens. as for "I agree about the hp/lbs argument. Raising the horsepower of the G-car improves the hp/lbs ratio. Any way you cut it, adding hp, or reducing weight, will acheive that goal. So, Lambo is acheiving that goal. I'd rather see the G and M maintain the AWD, and add sick amounts of horsepower. The AWD experience is incredible." It is not the same. Drive a Lotus Eleyse and you will see what I mean. You may like AWD and in my wife's Turbo Cayenne in the mud, rain, and snow I agree it's nice to have but in sports cars it's a needless waste of HP. There's a reason that Sports Racing cars don't use it (Including Lambo BTW) it's slower and people who really know how to drive don't need it. F1 cars which have a huge hp to lbs ratio are controlable without TC,ESC, or ABS and the fastest Lambo street racers have disenabled their AWD as well. You love your car. You're much happier with it that you were with your 360. That's what it's about.
Actually, most racing series have outlawed awd. For high power levels in street cars awd really comes into it's own (assuming a progressive AWD system).
Napolis, True that Lambo was not doing well in the racing series. But how many races did they actually have to work out the bugs? Not many. Those other cars you mention have had much more track time to perfect their set-up. What matters to me is that you can take my car, and put it on the track with stock cars (that you mentioned): 360, 550, 575, P Cars. Guess which one is the fastest around the track? The Murcielago. I suppose if I was a race car driver and wanted to win (of course), I would drive a Ferrari or Porsche. Great factory support, lots of dollars injected into it. But the fact is, I don't. I drive street cars. I didn't just fall out of bed one day and start loving Lamborghini. When I owned my 360, I felt something was missing. So, I started looking at a variety of cars from Porsche, Lambo, and Ferrari. I test drove a number of different cars. I quickly found out what I was missing. The 360 was a great car, enjoyable to drive, and nice to look at. But in terms of performance, it's just adequate. Not much torque, doesn't slam you in the back (like a Murcielago, GT2, 996TT, or Gallardo). When I drive an exotic, I want it to feel exotic. And to me, feeling exotic includes gobs of power. Endless power. That is a Murcielago. I'd love to take some of these Ferrari guys on the track in my car. Throw on some Ferrari's out there, while we're at it. I think I could get them to stop talking about F1 victories for a few moments...
The debate of the claims of sales success (or failure) of the G car piqued my interest. Beside looking at the price/stocks of the Gallardo in the dealers, can somebody post some links to offical sales figures showing how well/badly the G car sold? Or if Lambo/Audi actually turned a profit with the G car?
VW's financials as well as Ferrari's are public record. Bloomberg, Yahoo finance, etc. or simply read their anaual reports. (google) Clax I don't disagree but a good driver in a Lotus might surprize you. Best
The only question that's relevant: Is a 600HP Gallardo better than a 500HP Gallardo? Answer: Yes. End of debate.
Could care less about the financials of these companies as my last name isn't "Volkswagen" or "Ferrari" and they don't send me checks. To speak of them constantly, as you so often do Jim, is telling. I care about the car. Does it move me emotionally, does it make me want to drive it when I look at it, does it make me feel lucky to be alive, lucky to be someone who knows the differance between the exquisite contentedness that one feels when driving a sportscars versus just being an automaton in basic transportation? That's what I prize. I don't give a **** about waiting lines, future appreciation, sales targets, whether it's selling well, whether it's not, whether it's owned by an Indonesian firm, whether it's owned by Volkswagen group, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. Does it move me. Very simple.
Napolis doesn't need me to speak for him, but I'm sure that he would agree with you on this point. But, the financial picture is important if you want to see more Lambos in the future. Making cars is an expensive business that burns up a lot of cash that could be more profitability invested in other ventures that produce a higher return for less risk. Dale
Mako It moves you. It moves Clax. It moves Alan. Cool. I hope you buy one buy one and enjoy. As for VW and Ferrari sending you checks if you study them and take approiate action ie: Short the $ long the euro/ short VW you'll find they, in a fashion will.
Hey take it easy...I was just posting a question. I wanted to find out if there was any truth to the matter is all. I heard the info from the owner of a local Audi dealership here in my town. I service his cars for him. This is why I asked the question. I figured this information comming form an Audi dealer owner would have some merit..But I guess he was wrong..hence the reason for the question. Sorry to have upset you.. Tom
It has been hinted at by my friends within VW. New CEO wants change. Hasn't made up his mind yet on what to change first.
From "Another" board...... Awwww. Getting lonely, way out there in the middle of that big old ocean, are you? DL
I can hardly believe this topic has gone this many pages... Just to add a quick comment though, I can't see VAG letting go of Lambo anytime soon. I dont know how many people heard, but the Mk5 Jetta will be powered by an inline 5 cyclinder engine taken from the Gallardo. Basically they are yanking one cyclinder bank and detuning it. (Basically what Porsche did with the 928/944)
Thats what you get when you have the F word and the L word mentioned in the same thread! I don't think they are going to get an ROI for a long time. The question is not when they are going to let them go, but to whom? TVR's are now made by Russia With Love *tongue in cheek* Who are the players that would take Lambo off their hands? I think its a very short list. The only option is to do what every large manufacturer does with a speciality brand... mass market and cheapen the **** out of it in hopes they will eventually turn a profit. What a shame.
The funny thing is that one of the posters in this thread was involved in the "owning" of L several years back.
