Hot start problem even after Bosch relay installed

If you have a new starter, and you have the Bosch relay (properly installed), and you're sure that your battery cables are OK, then the most likely suspect (to me) would be a weak battery, or a SHOT ignition switch which can't pass enough voltage to close the contacts in the relay.

So - if I was in your situation, I would first try a jump start at the battery. If you have a battery/alternator issue, it should start right up on a jump. If it still won't crank over, I would jump the terminals on the starter (WITH THE SHIFTER IN NEUTRAL!!) and see if that makes her crank.

 

Sounds exactly like the problem I have occasionally... and that's the fix for me... jumping the two leads on the starter. I keep a 12-inch piece of wire in the glove compartment for just that purpose. I, too, have replaced the relay and overhauled the starter, but never thought the ignition switch wouldn't pass enough current to close the contacts... makes sense though...

Miltonian, if it's definately not a battery (new) or alternator (just rebuilt) issue, would that tend to narrow it down to the ignition switch if you have to use a jumper wire at the starter terminals?

Mike in Kuwait

 

Mike, what you are saying sounds correct to me, although I would say the problem is in the ignition switch CIRCUIT, most likely at the switch itself, but not guilty until proven. You HAVE to get full battery voltage through that ignition switch circuit, to the solenoid on the starter, or the starter will refuse to crank over.

 

Jeff,

Thanks for the info... not sure where to go from here... it's only happened three times since I bought the car, and in each case I was able to start the car by jumping the terminals... to overstate the obvious... that's the problem with intermittent problems... they're intermittent.

The 'quick fix' would be to replace the ignition, but then you have to also replace the door locks so the key matches...and, as you said, 'innocent until proven guilty.'

It's a dilemma...

Mike in Kuwait

 

There are only two wire terminals on the starter. The big one is the cable that is directly connected to the positive battery terminal, so the starter MOTOR always has full battery power going to it, if the cable connections are clean and tight. The smaller terminal on the starter solenoid is directly connected to the ignition switch circuit. This is where the trouble lies. If you don't get full battery voltage through that wire from the switch, you don't have enough juice to engage the solenoid and spin the starter motor.

For experimentation, you make SURE (!!!!!) that the shifter is in neutral, you pull the smaller wire off the solenoid terminal (it just pushes on) and then you take a screwdriver or a jumper wire and you jump between the two terminals, which gives full power to both the starter motor and the solenoid. Hey presto, it should crank over every time. If the ignition switch is turned on, the motor will start. If the switch is off, the motor will crank but it won't start.

Pushing down on the clutch should have zero effect on the starter.

If you have a voltmeter, you need to find out where the drop is. It appears that the battery is OK. Where was your Bosch relay installed, and what is it using for a power source? Either your ignition switch is VERY bad, or your Bosch relay is attached to a weak power source (my opinion).

 

Small wire can be cut and a new spade terminal soldered on and that helps. Also do the same with the wire as it enters and leaves the key switch.

Ferrari had a Kluge by adding an external solinoid that worked better in heat and the weak power from the small wire thus worked better but the problem was not truely solved but owners thought so. If you go that route by a solinoid from a lincoln continental about 1984ish they had the external solinoid. I have a new one if you PM me.

Go to autoparts store and buy a remote stater if you don't want to carry the wire or spark it with a screwdriver ala miltonian's suggestion. Hook to big and little terminal trun key to on, car in neutral handbrake on press remote starter fires right up takes 10 seconds but you may need to leave the exhaust heatshield off to access the terminals. Or you could split off a wire pair from big and small terminal of about 10 guage and keep them covered but reachable and spark em when needed.

You definately sound like you got a bad wire from small terminal to key switch to fusebox to battery.

 

It is of course all correct.............however, if there is a drop of voltage anywhere in the "system" pushing down the clutch helps in the way you do not have to turn around the gearbox as well when cranking.

Could be just what you need to make the starter motor run with the lower voltage.

Of course it does not help in the long run you have to find the cause of your problems anyway, but it can help occasionally.

Same in the winter when the oil is thicker..........in ordinary cars who run during winter time. It sure helps pushing down the clutch then.

//B//

 

There's one other trick to try for that moment when you are out stranded.

You get in your car, turn the ignition key and get: nothing...arrgh!

Well, briefly turn on your headlights and then turn them back off. Now try the ignition key again. Car batteries are strange in that they put out a *little* more voltage (briefly) after they've been put under a brief load/draw.

So if your starter relay has *almost* enough voltage to engage, then your little headlight trick might pump up the battery voltage enough to get you home instead of having to wait an hour for everything to cool off enough to start her up.

If it doesn't work on the first try, though...no use drawing down the battery with more attempts. It's sort of a one-time-thing to try when stranded.

 

Okay boys, I think it's those damn bullet connectors.

In the past I had starting problems with my car because of the bullet connector going to the positive connection on the battery, from the starter. It would also get the battery light coming on and off periodically because of the stupid bullet connector.

If the bullet connector/s get loose you will won't get power to the starter/battery. It won't get to the battery because, the charge from the alternator goes to the battery via the starter. You won't get power the to starter because of the bullet connector in the middle of the cable. Any disruption of that connect will cause what you have described, even with the your starter relay.

What I did was to get rid of those damn bullet connectors all together. I cut out the entire old bullet connector cable set up and replaced it with a solid cable running from the starter to the positive terminal on the battery. I also had a solid cable from the negative terminal to the frame. When I had the cables made I had marine style quick disconnects put on the ends attached to the battery. The result, no more stupid starting problems. It cost my about $35 to have them made with the connections I wanted. You can find the bullet connector running right under the air box, and the bullet connector for the negative is right above the battery.

So go have a look and see if you have the bullet connectors. I'm guessing you do, especially of your battery is located in the rear left corner of the engine bay. If I'm right and it does turn out that you do have the bullet connectors, fiddle with the one under the air box and see if that gets your car to fire up. I'll be it does. Then replace the damn things with solid cable.

 

Ok so I ran across this old thread. My 348 has the large contactor cluge that Ferrari cam up with. The solution makes sense to me....a relay is going to draw less current through the ign switch than the starter solenoid. I kinda cleaned up the instalation. Also, on my rear battery car, there is an very poorly designed connection under the air box for starting current to the starter. My connection had white arc corrosion on it such that I am surprised that it functioned. Ricambi is a great source for replacement ($150) vs the dealer ($1500). FWIW.

Jeff Pintler
89 348tb, 86tr
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I still have the same problem off and on.... the remote starter is the way to go... it's happened to me at home,and i've found that if I move the car even a little bit with it in gear (changing the position of the flywheel and crank) that the solenoid and start engage immediately the next time I turn the key... I've been through the battery, new starter and solenoid, etc., I have no idea what it is, but for some reason the engine has to slightly 'change position' or the starter won't engage... in my case, I can hear the relay clicking in, but have replaced it anyway... no help.

Just a thought... is it possible that the crankshaft sensor is, somehow, coming into play in all this???

Mike in Kuwait

 

1) Where is the relay installed?
2) What is the relay using for a power source? In other words, the relay is there to send full, strong, 100% battery voltage to the starter. What are you using as a source for that voltage? What is it tapped into?
3) You need to pull the starter signal wire (the smaller one, that should now be coming from the relay) and hook a voltmeter up to it, then turn the key to the start position and see how much voltage you are getting at the terminal end. If you're getting less than full battery voltage, then something isn't right.

It shouldn't really make any difference whether the car is hot or cold. The issue is getting the voltage to the starter.

 

Same situation here for me too! If I rock the car just a wee bit with the car in gear, it usually fires right up. I have the WR1 key on my desk too, but too lazy to install it.

 

I think there must be some kind of safety interlock, or something....changing the position of the crankshaft by moving the car in gear only slightly would have no effect on the voltage level to the starter/solenoid.

I keep going back to the crankshaft sensor, or one of the cam sensors, wondering if there is some grease, dirt, or a bad connection, or something that might not be 'completing the circuit.' Something else that has cropped up recently on my car is that I'm getting some grease from the flywheel at the inspection port... so, time to do a flywheel regreasing job...but simply haven't had time to do it. I don't know if it has anything to do with the starting problem, but it does seem to be getting somewhat worse...happening more often.

It's a mystery.

Mike in Kuwait