Hot Start Problem

My Dad always said that if the car has fuel, spark and timing it HAS to run. I don't have a Mondial but here's a few thoughts:

It cranks, that's good. Either you're not getting fuel, spark or timing. Spark is easy to check: pull a wire, have a friend crank and see it it arcs to the valve cover. Wear rubber gloves or something and don't stand in a puddle!

If you have spark, pull out a spark plug and see if you can smell gas. Not 100% but if you DON'T smell gas you have a clue.

Timing is last and if you have electronic ignition I bet that's your problem. Modial fuse boxes are always said to be a weak point. Check the fuses for corrosion, etc. Maybe you can jiggle the ignition related ones while you crank the engine?

Ken

 

Sounds like the accumulator, I'd check that first. The accumulator maintains a level of pressure after the motor is shut off. Without that pressure, the fuel percolates in the injector lines, forceing the fuel back thru the system. This causes a starting problem due "lack of fuel".

 

one of the things that I was always told that would cause a hot start problem was the fuel one way anti drainback being faulty;
I do think it is gas and not ignition.

 

If the problem is lack of fuel, perhaps there is a better way, but for a quick check, I would try to hook jumpers to the cold start injector to see if that would allow the engine to fire.

Mark

 

Kermit's right, the most common problem is the CIS accumulator failing, leading to vapor lock.
Quick check:
US spec cars: Look for gas in the hose coming out of the back of the accumulator & going up to the top of the gas tank.
Euro cars: Accumulator doesn't have the hose, just drips gas down onto the ground.

There are a few other causes, Fuel pump fuse blowing, or fuel pump failure being another common one. Worn fuel pumps pull more amps & seem to partially seize up when hot.

Search the archives, for 'hot start'. It comes up every year or so with the CIS cars.

 

I had car that had the same problem. It wasn't a Ferrari but it probably was about the same age as your car. I was able to trace it to the starter. Its been about five years so I can't remember exactly what the problem was. but it had something to do with a bushing in the starter that was worn. When the car got hot, the bushing lost the ability to make contact or something like that. Starters probably a shared part with other manufactures so I thought I'd mention it.

 

Mine has the same problem; I just purchased a fuel accumulator and fuel pump check valve to see if that will fix it. If you search the technical threads, you'll find a number of threads on this topic for Mondials and 308's.
Thor
www.JavelinArt.com

 

The same thing is happening to my 308 gtsi, Its most likely an accumulator,I found an exact replacement, cross ref. Mec. Benz 450SL

best price ( in stock ) i found.... the foto and the oem part # is the same

http://www.autopartsheadquarters.com/epc-jobs.asp#801572


Bosch
BSH008141

$155.78

now this place did not have it in stock last month but their price is
even better , call the phone # on the web page..

http://www.classycars4u.com/

BOS 0438170004 FUEL ACCUMULATOR $101.54

good luck.

 

Merle,
I've been assuming that you have verified that you're getting spark when things are acting up. Because of the dual ECUs, coils, etc, it's very rare, but not unheard of, to have an ignition failure take out both banks.

I remember from the wiring diagram that there are 1 or 2 relays that might overheat, stick, & disable power to both banks. A voltage or spark check while it's acting up would also be in order.

I've posted a cutaway diagram of the accumulator. It's a generic one from a BOSCH tech manual. T are 2 accumlator connection varients. 1 varient is connected to the fuel line with a T fitting like the 1 shown. The other has an inlet & outlet connector to the top (rh side of pix) of the accumulator. While I haven't cut one apart, I think that both of the line connections are just straight into the pressure chamber as is the single connection shown.

The common failure is a pinhole leak in the diaphram, letting gas dribble into the spring chamber & out the vent fitting in the back. The leak drains fuel line pressure down in a short time, rathar than it being held up until the engine cools down some.
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Where are you checking the accumulator output? At the accumulator?, fuel filter? Distributor?

 

Did you test the pump by jumping it? Why isn't it at the fuse box as so many Mondial problems are said to be; was that checked? I hate when mechanics attack problems by replacing part after part in the hopes they eventually get it right, while you're stuck with the bill for a pile of parts you didn't need and the guy's labor.

This is why I do my own work now. I can't afford the trial and error approach.

Ken

 

I would still check at the fuses; a bad connection there would wreak havoc on the pump, etc.

Ken

 

Merle, my reco here is to go perform a thorough and complete examination of the fuse box. All kinds of Mondial electrical gremlins (such as intermittant fuel pump power supply) are due to corrosion in the fuse box, particularly the rivet connections. It may not be power to the fuel pump which is the problem - could also be intermittant power supply to the ecu or something similar. Also look for overloaded circuits due to hack wiring associated with the addition of after market items (alarms, stereo amps, car phones, etc.).

 

I'm unconvinced that you can just check for pressure outside the accumulator (it's not just an empty tube, after all).

The better test is starter fluid.

If you think that you aren't getting fuel, but do have spark, then simply spray starter fluid into your cylinders.

After spraying, if your engine cranks but then sputters and dies from lack of fuel, then you have a fuel issue.

But if your engine won't start even with the starter fluid in the cylinders, then you have a spark (or timing) issue.

 

I wouldn't be suprise if it is an electrical problem in the power to the fuel pump. BTDT.
I cured the problem on a Mondy by adding a second relay at the pump itself, as shown in the pic. I used the existing power wire from the stock system to actuate the relay, so it has a minimal draw on it. The new power supply is a line directly from the battery lead at the starter, to there is plenty of amps. The stock wire actuates the relay, so it works just like stock as far as on and off, but it doesn't have a problem with overload, as the stock one does. Complete the installation by wrapping it in a piece of bicycle innertube for water protection.
I have done the same type of settup on 308's with the same success.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

i have heard many great things about clive !!!!!!

 

It wasn't a leap of faith that pretty much everyone said that was the first place to look. On the bright side, you have a basket of duplicate parts to sell on eBay!

Will Birdman's fuse box work for your model?

Ken

 

Nope! Birdman's fix is for the 308 only. We've been trying to come up with a replacement fuse box for the Mondies for some time. One of these days, hopefully. In the meantime, they should simply wire a relay outside the fuse box, put an inline fuse in and go that route, IMHO.

Steve

 

Just wanted to thank everyone who contributed to this Sherlock Holmes detective story. At the start I had guessed "whodunit" was the fuel accumulator, seemed confirmed by a few contributors.

Then the the nagging feeling of electrics getting overheated started to creep in, yep fuse box corrosion or maybe fuel pump relay was my next theory.

Well there's no substitute for opening up the electrics and "sniffing" for burnt out wires....
Great story within an exciting end-twist,
Ron