How could McLaren know of Ferrari's flex-flloor?

I'm starting this thread because several of us have asked this question in another thread hoping that "those in the know" would respond. But it seems this question was over shadowed by other issues in the "McLaren Charged by FIA" thread now ongoing. However...I feel that this seemingly insignificant incident suggests VERY strongly the possibility that McLaren could have known and used the stolen/leaked Ferrari technical data, not to make their car better necessarily - but to upset Ferrari's game plan. To recap this incident, here is a quote of what I wrote in the other thread:



"""McLaren protests against Ferrari for having a flexible floor in their car. The FIA rules stated that a floor must not flex upward (into the cockpit) more than a few millimeters with a certain amount of force applied. BUT ---- Ferrari's floor was flexing DOWNWARD....not upward, so I feel it was technically within the rules. The FIA then "clarified" this rule and Ferrari had to change their floor structure.

The Ferrari's floor was flexing downward by only a few millimeters...just enough to stall the air a bit going under the car and help the aerodynamics on high speed sections of the track.

MY QUESTION: How in the heck would/could any competitor possibly know this was happening? If it only happens at high speeds, and the floor movement is just fractions of an inch, how would you spot that? I would really like to hear from those educated in this stuff to tell me how?"""



In this case I have not totally made my mind up yet. I'm waiting to hear more facts about Stepney/Caughlin-Gate. We may actually never get to whole truth in this case. But this protest by McLaren earlier in the F-1 season does make me wonder.

Please everyone, if you respond to this question in a logical and sensible way I appreciate it - as would most everyone else. If this thread starts to get out of hand it will be "chopped".

So to reiterate:

HOW COULD McLAREN KNOW ABOUT THE FLEXIBLE FLOOR IN FERRARI's CAR?

 

A valid question! - However, we currently believe that the famous docs weren't in Coughlans possession until *after* Mclaren asked Charlie for a "clarification" [Autosport news, March 20th.]

So, if not the docs, how? - A couple of ideas:

1. BMWSauber were also "rumoured" to be using a flex floor. This suggests to me that at least these 3 teams (and probably others) had discovered some benefit from wind tunnel testing. However, recognizing that this was at best a "grey area" they asked for the clarification before dumping the inevitable $ in developing it themselves. [Although, we've got to remember that Renaults "mass damper" was initially ruled to be legal....]

2. Maybe a high-speed camera noticed something?

Unless Coughlan was actually in possession of the docs earlier than we believe.....

My 02c,
Cheers,
Ian

 

Thank You Fast-ian - that pretty much drives the last nail in the coffin for this question. Boy, I sure expended a lot of hot air to find that out...oh well. Thanks Again...

 

I know that I should not get involved with these types of threads but, here I go

I do not know when the Ferrari docs were received, but does anyone think that is where it started? I would assume that Coughlan received some other info before and not received the package as a "surprise".

 

Did the request for clarification from McLaren came as soon as after the first race?

 

Seems likely that some amount of verbal information would/could have been passed way before the documents were "borrowed". there is no telling when he decided to betray his teammates, for all we know he was doing it while he was still there, perhaps even for some length of time before he left.

 

I copied and posted it a few days ago on another thread but the FIA are in belief that Mclaren (coughlan) had the documents at the start of the season.

 

This makes sense as copying 790 pages of a top secret manual sounds very brazen and shows that he was at the point of getting sloppy. Lots of info probably exchanged hands before this bold incident came to light.

BTW, ratting out F for a flexible floor shows another way the info can be used to another team's advantage. I would think in this game all the teams have spies to a degree but this incident was just too obvious to overlook.

 

interesting thread. got me thinking, i suppose Mike really had those docs pre Melbourne, but perhaps he got more docs in April.

 

The same way everyone knew about Renault's mass damper system. That was inside the nose area, even more impossible to see. All the teams spy on each other. My guess is someone told them.

 

Was Stepney paid for Ferrari secrets?
Posted 17 July 2007 at 17:45 GMT

The criminal case against alleged Formula One conspirator Nigel Stepney has continued to exacerbate.

Reports now suggest that Italian prosecutors, investigating Michael Schumacher's sacked former mechanic for espionage and sabotage, believe that Stepney may have received payments from McLaren for the nearly 800-pages of secret Ferrari material.

Britain's Daily Mail reported on Monday that Italian police "were trawling through (Stepney's) bank accounts" in Italy and the UK.

Previously, it was understood that Stepney had sent the reams of sensitive information to McLaren's Mike Coughlan because they were attempting to bolster their knowledge before defecting to Honda.

Meanwhile, La Gazzetta dello Sport has published more detail about the supposed contents of the package sent by Stepney.

As well as car and component blueprints was grand prix data, telemetry as recent as from races this year, and information about the F2007's tyre behaviour, engine management, and much more.

End of article..."and much more"

 

good point. but at that stage of the season? it was just the 1st race...

 

I read this on another forum and i also posted it on another thread. This theory sounds interesting

Coughlin and Stepeny are both key members of the TWG, which is instrumental in creating the new rules for F1 for the future. they obviously have constant contact with eachother. they are also close friends from way back in the 90's when they worked together at Ferrari too.

its also common knowledge in F1 that Stepney has wanted to leave Ferrari to work for a British team again, with both Brawn and Stepney linked to Honda for over a year now.
its also common knowledge that Ferrari wouldn't allow Stepney to leave, and Stepney voiced his frustration publicly, angering the Ferrari team's top brass. that's why he was on 'gardening leave' up until this all exploded.

i think this is all linked to the flexi-floor issue that popped up out of nowhere earlier this year.. i think Stepney chose to disclose Ferrari's floor designs to Coughlan at McLaren, allowing McLaren to have facts to base their successful concerns to the FIA, and which led to the banning of Ferrari's (and BMW's) floor designs.
it was strangely odd at the time that Ferrari did not try to defend their floor at the time, and it makes more sense now - they knew that their own former 'dream-team' employee had supplied insider technical knowledge in how they were breaking the rules and they had nothing to stand on to defend themselves without further embarrassing themselves with their flouting of the rules. no coincidence that Ferrari's performance suffered shortly after they were forced to redesign their illegal floor.

Coughlin and Stepney will be the scapegoats in this whole situation, which had helped McLaren get ahead of Ferrari, and Ferrari has gotten back at McLaren by forcing the team to step-down their head of design until this ends.
Ferrari have been incredibly smart in their timing of this - Stepney could not defend himself since he was on holidays, McLaren need Coughlin as they continue development of this year's car whilst starting development of their '08 racer too.
Ferrari are the winners in this whole situation, kudos to them, they've orchestrated this almost to perfection.

 

I think the thing with the mass damper thing was that quite a few teams were developing the mass damper system but Renault got it right and the others were pi55ed (read Ferrari) and got the FIA to ban it to bring Renault back to the field.

I'm sure if Ferrari got it right it may have been a different story

as for the floorboards, it was probably the same story as Ian said

 

They watch ESPN don't they?

 

This theory has a flaw... the unveiling of the whole affair was caused by an employee at a copy shop; Ferrari didn't have anything to do with the timing...

 

It actually came at the first race - A post race inspection cleared all teams. Charlie then issued his clarification on March 27th.

See: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/57650

As has been said, it's possible Stepney was already in Judas mode and simply called his buddy Coughlan and said:

"Hey, you need to protest the floor in Australia and btw, I"ll hand over all the docs when I ses you in Spain at the next test".

But I doubt it. I've already posted my theories on this, but I currently believe Stepney/Coughlan were in cahoots to get as much info as possible for their own use with another team. Not to help Mclaren.

Cheers,
Ian

 

It probably was known from testing. RD just wanted to bring it up after the first race.

 

Here is what Autosport.com has posted as of today: 7-19-07
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Stepney warned Coughlan of Ferrari floor

By Jonathan Noble Thursday, July 19th 2007, 14:22 GMT


Nigel Stepney emailed McLaren's chief designer Mike Coughlan on the eve of the season to tip him off about Ferrari's moveable floor design, this week's Autosport magazine reveals.

McLaren will face an extraordinary meeting of the FIA World Motor Sport Council next week to face charges of 'fraudulent conduct' over the possession of secret Ferrari documents from March to July this year.

The matter was originally only thought to relate to a 780-page Ferrari technical dossier, which McLaren said Coughlan had in his possession only from the end of April.

However, a reliable source has revealed to this week's Autosport magazine that the March date the FIA has referred to relates to early contact between Stepney and Coughlan.

In particular, the source says it relates to a specific email that Stepney sent to Coughlan, revealing Ferrari's floor design and tipping the McLaren designer off about taking possible action about it.

Although it is not known if Coughlan passed on this information to the team, McLaren did ask for a rule clarification about Ferrari's movable floor design at the season-opening Australian Grand Prix.

That action resulted in the FIA changing its floor tests and outlawing the design Ferrari ran at the time - which is believed to have hindered their form.

The background to McLaren's actions in Melbourne will likely play a key part in the FIA World Motor Sport Council hearing next week, as the sport's governing body faces the task of working out whether or not the team did anything wrong.

Autosport also reveals that the Surrey copy shop that tipped off Ferrari about Coughlan having the 780-page dossier was asked to scan the information in order to transfer it into electronic format and in to a computer disc.

It is understood that after the information had been put on disk, the actual Ferrari document was shredded and burned in Coughlan's back garden.

Coughlan is understood to have been advised to destroy the document after showing a glimpse of it to McLaren managing director Jonathan Neale at a golf club. It is not known, however, when this incident took place.



(Toungue-in-cheek comment here: I wonder what caused the wind tunnel disaster at Ferrari.....?....) THIS IS JUST MY IDEA OF A JOKE....SORRY...

 

Not quite so tongue in cheek... 7/3/07
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