How do you value a "major" done by a DIY owner?

My 2c. Do it and document it. Nearly all buyers will try to use it against you, but if it weren't that, it would be something else like rockpecks, etc. Only the least knowledgeable buyers will be scared off, and they are dangerous to sell to anyway. Having a nicer car after the job and knowing for sure that it's done right is worth far more than the loss of a few potential buyers.

 

in my opinion your going about the right way. documentation, take as many pics as possible and keep all reciepts for parts. i've bought many car that was DIY maintained. the reason i was fine with it was as you pointed out no delare or indipendant is going to go the extra mile and the PO had a binder full of pics and documents.

even with the dealer service how many times have we all questioned it being done/forged? with a DIY pics and reciepts it's pretty cut/dry. i even had one PO go the extra mile and got his reciepts and pics tied to mileage, wrote out a letter and had the car inspected by a notary to confirm mileage then the letter was noterized. to me that was better than any dealer reciept, hands down!

for me, i'd rather buy a car maintained by a DIY who loves the car vs a shop being paid to handle 'issues'.

that being said, if the service is real recent and the only one just prior to sale it raises some flage for me. however 90% of the time the DIY has done more than one and there is enough mileage between events to figure ti was done right.

 

Hi Bo.....

The problem with analyzing the answers to this question is that you are going to get a bunch of technicially competent (and otherwise) people telling you it probably is OK. But..........

Perception is the reality in the marketplace........the truth does not matter here........generally speaking the vast majority of buyers care about who did the work.......I am not going to use medical analogies on you, but DIY brain surgery would be a good place to start. Do you want to alienate 65% or 75% of the buyer pool with a DIY major ?.....remember.....you will already be facing an uphill battle at resale time because you have a WHITE Testarossa......don't make it any harder on yourself.

Speaking as a dealer it is a big negative unless the DIY'er was a mechanic with specific F-car experience. And even then.........it'd be a hard sell IMHO, unless the car was sold locally to someone in the community, who knew the DIY'er and his/her reputation.

As far as I am concerned, it would mean nothing value wise, and I would "not" sell the car with the representation that it had a major service done unless it went thru a dealer or recognized specialist.

Liability is an issue......and DIY maintained cars do not get sold by me for that reason.

 

Hey, are you poking fun at us DIY brain surgeons? My surgery worked out ok, except I have a few spare parts left in the refrigerator.


Seriously though, I bought my car from a non-dealer. I visited his shop, saw the parts inventory of things he installed during the service, and was reasonably convinced the car wouldn't explode upon delivery.

Guess what? It has been flawless. Kudos to Mike Grande at LNS Motors.

 

Wow... That's a frightening statistic. I'm by no means "knowledgeable" about working on/fixing these cars like so many of you on here, but I knew enough to get a very thorough PPI and to ask about the major. It would stun me that someone would buy a pre-owned Ferrari without having it checked out. Good luck with your dilemma.

J.

 

I bought my car based on the seller's statements that he'd replaced the timing belts and tensioner bearings. I believe everything the guy's told me then and in the 3 years since I bought the car. I don't really expect that anyone's going to question that I've done the work when I go to sell, and if they do, they can move right along to the next car. It's true what's been indicated about PPIs... I looked at another 308 before mine and the seller indicated that I was the only person to do any such legwork.

 

This is just my opinion, but if a DIYer is wanting to buy your car, he/she is going to appreciate the fact that you did it yourself and probably spent extra time and care that might not have been available from a dealer. If its not a DIYer, they might think otherwise.

I'd rather have one thats been driven and maintained by someone who really cared about it. I want one thats been loved.

 

WADR: That doesn't sound like a very "liberal" opinion.

But then again, good businessmen are rarely liberal, when it comes to business. Especially thier own!

...sorry. couldn't resist the jibe.

bpu699,

Bottom line with each of these comments is: "Consider the source".

We all have our biases, and in the end, it's "you" that has to balance your own bias against your good sense of judgement.

That being said; If you plan to keep the car, then DIY if you can, by all means. Otherwise, you might just consider selling the car "as is", for the compensation that you know makes you feel comfortable.

Or better yet, (and maybe this seems a little convoluted), but there are a nubmer of DIY'ers out there "looking for project cars". The less of a project the better. So, if you can do it yourself, maybe you can strike a deal with someone under the banner, "TR for sale, will assist new owner with major service". Then the two of you can sit down and do the work together.

He pays for parts and your labor is free. And he knows what was done in the end. So you both win.

I know that's a long-shot, and it takes a particular kind of buyer. But I believe there are many many buyers like that that are looking for a way to shave a littte bit off the price and still get something they're comfortable with.

I've had several DIY'er's asking me about my car, before I started the work on it. I declined, but that's my bias. I'm confident in my ability and the integrity of this board to document the process. And my car is a GT4 that is worth a lot less than your TR. So my opinion may only be valid in my case.

But, (IMHO) if it were done and documented on this board, as are a number of other cars, I would have no problem buying a car like that. The cost of dealer overhead, would far outweigh any perceived savings from having a receipt for a major done by a dealer, and heaven forbid the same dealer, in my hand as I fork over thousands of extra dollars for a used car.

Especially in California, where all used vehicles are (by law) sold "as is", unless othewise stated.

 

Sell it when it's time for the next major and let the new owner pay the dealer himself to have it done.

 

Consider this for a moment. Lets say the major on a TR is $10K. If you just had the major done by a dealer and paid $10K, do you think you can get $10K more for the car than you could without it? I seriously doubt it.

Lets say you did your own major and the buyer isn't impressed, so he tries to haggle you down $10K, arguing that he needs to have the major done again by a dealer. Will you take $10K less? I doubt it.

So the cost of a dealer major outweighs its value. If it costs you $10K to get $5K more for the car, you LOST $5K on a dealer major. If you can do it yourself, you still end up better off taking a $5K hit in selling price to save a $10K major. I made up the figures, but you get what I mean.

To me, a major is my assurance that the car won't blow up when I drive it. A DIY major may not be "worth" as much as a dealer major, but it costs far more than it's "worth" so it makes no sense to do a dealer major if the only reason is for resale value.

Just my $.02.

Birdman

 

I'll try not to wade in too deep. My first impulse was to be harsh when I saw this thread. Yes, there are some DIY folk that might be considered competent to do this level of work, but not most or even very many, if some of the queries and observations by some posters are any guide. <grin> We're talking, for the most part, about cars that DIY'ers are working on being more than a decade and a half old. This is not a bad thing, it's just what makes this discussion possible in the first place.

Birdman, not every TR major service is $10K. The bill is often less for younger, better maintained cars. There are only so many pieces and parts requiring attention at the major service interval. I know for a fact that the difference in selling price between a TR pending a major service and price for a TR with a documented-by-an-FNA-dealer-or-well-known-independent often advantages, or at least makes the sale a great deal easier for, the seller more than the direct costs. This is seldom the case with DIY work.

When Kds says "As far as I am concerned, it would mean nothing value wise, and I would "not" sell the car with the representation that it had a major service done unless it went thru a dealer or recognized specialist," that is the most accurate statement I've seen so far responding to the original question.

When bpu699 says "It seems to me that the only major that really counts is the one right before the sale. If you own the car 10 years and do 2 majors yourself...and the last one at the dealer...you get all of the benefits with little of the cost..." that is probably true. Also it's a darn good question, "...how do you assess a DIY skill?" This is where the assessment of "value" in resale comes in.

When you close with "Essentially, I want to do my own major, but don't want it to turn out to be a fruitless waste of my time and energy...." you should follow your desires and do your own major, without regard to the impact in value. You'll get a lot out of the experience, there are plenty of people on this board that will help you out (even professionals <grin>) and you will come away more enriched in the "Ferrari experience" for you than someone else might. Documentation is your friend.

-Peter

 

The documentation is the key, I think, in addition to whether the buyer has taken any time to research the cars (and maintenance thereof). For example, I was interested in buying Jeremy Lawrence's 308 (but was too slow on the draw) and considered it a bonus that he had taken the time to do a serious major service on the car, thanks to the documenting of the work he did on threads here and another site. For a more extreme example, let's consider Newman's 308 and the amazing work he put in on that (this dude is totally my hero for being man enough to try a full on restoration at home). I would totally pay extra for that car because of the work on it. Even in my limited experience while hunting down my 308 I saw some "recent" dealer service sheets that were really dubious, if not outright fiction.

 

I'd agree with this. If a dealer does the major and something goes south next week, I have some hope of recourse. I want a skilled Ferrari mechanic, with a good reputation, to do the majors on my car.

If you did it in your garage, and you're very gifted, and take lots of photos, and the engine grenades next week, I'm stuck.

(I love white TRs. Who's selling?)

 

I have personally had experiences with two "qualified" Ferrari independents (that I will not name) that did work far inferior to my own, and I'm no factory trained mechanic for sure. (I'm Verell trained which is nearly as good!) I would never send a car back to either of the shops. I'm sure not all shops cut corners, but many do. It's all about the bottom line. Get the job done quickly to maximize profit. I would only trust the "shop" major if I trusted the shop and the mechanic. So I guess the shop's reputation is a major part of the equation.

Peter, I realize that I just picked a number of $10K. I said that. But I would venture to guess that 99% of TR majors are much closer to $10K than $5K. I stick by my assertion that a $10K major doesn't add $10K to the value of the car by a long shot. And a $5K major won't add $5K either.

I believe that if you are capable of doing your own work (properly) then you are better off financially because of it, even if you don't get quite as much at sell time. You will save more on maintenance than you will lose on selling price.

Birdman

 

It has been said that documentation is key and I totally agree with that. I do my own major services (3 so far) and have a pretty good understanding of what's involved, and what to look for. I would like offer this "middle of the road" viewpoint.

Yes a dealer service helps those who must totally depend on others to work on their car. But I've seen some work that was pretty scary, wrenches left in the engine bay, cooling fans not plugged in, dents in the body panels. And then their are the top of the line shops whose credentials can truly add value to the car because their work is without question.

When an enthusiast like myself does a major service...we go into it with the best of intentions and do take more time and tend to more details than most shops would. Even if we enthusiasts have the desire, we may not have the experience to know what "hidden" things to look for, things that aren't obvious. We may try and go by the book, but the book isn't always right.

So if I'm looking to buy a TR and it has just had a major service, I would be skeptical no matter who did it, except for those previously mentioned top of the line shops and mechanics (we are lucky have a few of those here on fchat). If it's a fresh major with very few miles on it you never know what sorting out may still be needed. But if the major has say a few thousand miles and a year or two on it, and the car runs great, then no matter who did the work it must have been done it right or disaster would have reared it's ugly head by now. So for a car that has a proven major service track record to me it doesn't matter who did it.....or at the very most I would consider adjusting the price by only a thousand or two. If a rich guy with no mechanical ability wants the car, then a top line shop service may be needed. If a decent wrench turner wants the car and it's proven itself, then it hardly makes a difference who did the work if it was done right.

Most of this debate is based on who...or what type...of customer is looking at the car. Just my two cents and not worth that.....

 

I did my 30K major service on my '94 512TR last year. It took me 6 weeks, but every hose, hose clamp and gasket was replaced and the entire engine compartment was detailed. This type of work becomes a slippery slope for the enthusiast: "I can't put a clean engine back in a dirty engine bay, and if I clean the engine bay I really should polish the exhaust, etc". I had the benefit of some mechanical experience with American cars and a local Ferrari mechanic and friend Luciano Sanzogni (former Ferrari F1 team mechanic) who let me assist and observe on two other 12 cylinder services at his shop and then came to my garage at home to check my work and help me install the belts and water pump. The clutch was also upgraded, all valves were set and the entire engine detailed to show condition. I now have just over 7K miles since the service and there is not one leak - not one drop of fluid anywhere.

This degree of attention to detail can only be inspired by love of the vehicle, and the time required is not practical in a shop or dealership.

I would probably be suspicious of a home DIY service if it was recent, but if sufficient miles or time has passed and the car can be checked out by a competent mechanic before the sale. Then again, the enjoyment you will receive and the pride in the completed effort are hard to put in terms of dollars and cents. Go for it, enjoy the ride and let us know how it turns out.

 

Even though there are many DIYers that can competently perform a major service, I have to agree with KDS that "perception is reality" in the marketplace. It simply is not possible to assess the competence of most DIYers; therefore, I would expect that, in the marketplace, a major performed by a DIYer would not be given the same value as that performed by a dealer or recognized independent with a good reputation.

 

It all depends on the competance of the person doing the work: IMO the average man in the street does not have the understanding of engineering, or even the way things work, to be able to service any car. I would not feel comfortable with them changing my Boxer cam belts (setting timing and belt tension). Most Ferrari owners are more concientious, but still if the skill and understanding is not there....

Having said that, with all due respect to pro's on here, I have very little faith in them either. When I bought my Boxer I was horrified at the quality of work performed by well known Ferrari shops: I have spent a lot of time and money ensuring the problems have all been sorted.

As some of you will know, I'm in the middle of a full engine rebuild on my BBi. This started out as a belt service, but a pro shop had changed the valves and put back the wrong ones! I found 0.065" clearences! I've lost count of the wrong nuts and bolts, the sealer smeared over everything because it hadn't been assembled properly etc. When the engine goes back in my car it will be perfect. The person I bought the car from still swears by the shop he used....

I'm sure a suitably qualified owner would do an excellent job, just because of the passion he puts into his personal car...I know this from experience!

Robert

 

This is exactly how I feel. I've done quite a bit of work on my own car (with the help of others on this site) like an engine out, suspension rebuild, brake system rebuild, etc. It's all documented on this site with tons of pictures and descriptions- both the good and the bad. The engine out was almost two years ago and the car is running great without engine oil leaks (except a new slight gear oil leak- uggg!) and if I were looking for a 308, I would try to buy mine!

Just for entertainment- let's say my car is worth 30K as it sits right now:

Would my car be worth 40K+ if all my recent work (about 20k estimated if done by a pro) was done by a professional with receipts? No way. Would it be worth 5K more (35K) with these 20K in pro receipts- probably. So I lose some value, but had a great time losing it! The car is worth less, but I spent less. The bottom line is that I enjoy doing the work, learning as much as I can about the car, saving some money, and meeting other car nuts.

This is just my opinion, and certainly not meant as a knock against professional mechanics, especially the one's on this site that help make it possible to do the work myself. I'm just one dude in a sea of exotic car owners.

Basically, the DIY'er has the luxury of time and hopefully the smarts to know when to stop and ask a question.

jwise

 

That's the true measure of competence, even for the pro...

-Peter

 

George Carlin once quipped: "The average IQ is 100. So you can look at the average guy on the street and know that half the people in this country are stupider than he is!"

The "Specialty" auto shop that did the service and carb adjustment for the PO (the manager of a major delearship in Medford, Or) on my GT4, prior to my picking the car up, changed only the rear bank of plugs. Put in the wrong plugs. And as for balacing the carbs, I'm not sure what they did. (I posted the before and after in another thread). But they weren't even close. Even from barrel-to-barrel on the same carb did not match!

My PPO's "rebuild" 3K miles ago, also looks rather dubious. I know he fixed a weak cylinder. So it was torn-down. But whatever was done, I'm certain was just "the minimum". No detail work at all. The underneath of things like the alternator and starter motor look very very "original". Mine has started out as a syncro fix. But I may end up doing lot more than a detail too.

Ditto!

I think you've just validated the DIY rational. The operative caveat being (of course) "suitably qualified".

 

I second that!