How efficient are Hybrids, truthfully ?

If north america had the european diesel (much cleaner), I'd say diesels are the ultimate solution. Heck, we drove 2000km in a week and filled up once when visiting southern France.

Now america's diesel is crappy and its emissions are a killer ... that's why we don't get the fun diesels from Audi, MB or Bimmer.

If you ask me, they have a barely average efficiency (winter time is a battery killer, as well as long-term battery life questioning), but they are the best solution available right now for city commuting (not highway driving).
If we could get the little diesels from Europe, along with the cleaner fuel, it would be me choice, though.

 

They were a little less than break even when gas was 1.50/gallon. At 2/50/gallon, they make sense, depending on the mileage. Problem with diesels is that as of now, they can't pass the particulate test. Apparently, new technology is being developed, but it's not yet working.

It more than just how efficient the car is, and what kind of energy it takes to buid it. Oil is getting dearer and dearer, while electricity (used in the construction of the car) can come from many sources, inlcuding nuclear, dams, etc. You have to value the cost of the engery to make sense out of this, and when that is done (through the pricing system) it does make sense, given the current price of gas.

Art

 

Hybrids are expensive to build and heavy, so their actual energy savings over a conventional car are minimal (or less).

The best solution to an efficient car is light weight and small displacement. however, the same crowd that is clamering for more efficient cars is the EXACT same crowd that outlawed them.

Think of the potential popularity of the Japanese Ka-class cars (600cc) if they were able to be sold here AND were given the same sort of tax breaks and car pool lane rights the Hybrids are in many cases. Or even something like the Smart.

THEN you could see the great combo of low cost, high efficiency, and long term energy savings.

However, lightweight economy cars were outlawed in 1968 at the same time low slung sports cars were killed by the US Govt acting outside of historic Constitutional boundries. "For our own good". And the entry into this sort of Governemtn activism opened the door for the true beginnings of our current nanny-state.

That's why my domain name is FNADER... while I'm a Corvair guy, the damage he did to the US auto industry and US society in general is much more widespread.

Bill

 

How so? My dad's F250 is extremely powerful, can tow our trailer and anything else, which is what it was designed to do. Sure it's loud, but that, I think, makes it cooler. Bad emissions? absolutely. But that annoys the greenies, which gives me a good laugh. The european diesels are faster, more efficient, and cleaner, but to me the American diesels aren't any worse. After all, they do what they're designed to do, and that's all you really need.

 

I think he was refering to the diesel fuel itself not the cars.

 

Diesels are much cleaner for the greenhouse effect BUT they are very dirty for human cancer causing agents.
And as far as that remark from someone out there about "who cares, because it makes the greenes mad" thats just ignorant.

 

I was indeed referring to the quality of the fuel itself (IIRC, north american diesel has more sulphur and other crap in it).

I understand your point of view (and agree with it to a point, being a truck guy myself), but when american cars will go 800 miles on ONE tank of diesel (22gal), whilst having a twin turbo 4L V8 245hp diesel and a cathedral quiet interior (talking about the A8 here), completely vibration free ... I will agree that they aren't any worse. Until then ... well ...

 

Art -- Do you have any real basis for this statement? Can you explain why in the UK where gas is $7US per gallon hybrids do not dominate there? I'm sorry to take a harsh tone about this, but you're just repeating the distorted statistics of the people who benefit directly from the US gov't dollars that support hybrids -- i.e., the math of your calculation is only true in the US because the price of a hybrid vehicle to the consumer is artificially low and the MPG is artificially high (40 MPG is real-world not 60 MPG) -- but always willing to listen to a rational response.

 

I was recently "confronted" by a guy at work. He just bought a Prius and was gloating. After he heard that I liked high performace cars he decided to try to convert me. This do gooder went ballistic when I told him that the Maserati gets 12/18 mpg. In the end it turned out that in driving his (59 mpg, if you can get that figure) Prius for a 90 mile commute he was actually using more natural resources than my Maser in a 3.4 mile commute scenario.
Just another envirowanker without a sense of perspective.

 

I agree that our diesels should not be in cars just yet. Not actually smooth enough for that, or quiet enough for a daily driver. For trucks, I really don't care how rough they are, and I suppose that's why everyone gets a diesel truck here in the states, not in a car.

 

sampson, bingo. In the US, diesels are 99% workhorses. In europe, they are in every single line-up, and represent 60%, IIRC of total sales.

911tr, hybrids do not dominate in Europe because of your little 1.4D engines. You see, here it's either a hybrid, or the base 2.4L gas engine. If you get into slightly larger cars, then it's all V6 world, at least. There is no equally frugal alternative here. The only diesels we have are the Volks and their TDi 110.

 

I doubt people driving Hybrids are getting any "pountang" at all

 

I never like 'em hybrids. Why can't engineers make a truly useful electric cars? That EV1 sucks big time. However I love electric motors because they produce peak torque at 0 rpm. This means strong pulling power and less gears (or maybe no gearbox at all). Many of you R/C fans will probably agree with me on this. I don't mind driving electric cars if :

1. It has at least 200 mile range
2. Charges form zero to full in about 90minutes, just like my Nokia
3. The same price as a gasoline counterpart, or max 10% more expensive.

The thing I will lost the most is the exhaust sound but hey being more silent means I can install and enjoy a better quality stereo system.

Dislike:

Being treated the same as hybrid owners - no "pountang"

 

From what I've read I believe that Hybrids, in terms of gas mileage, aren't actually any better then a normal 4 cylinder honda. I can't remember where I read this (or saw it, or if it is really true...), but according to it the reason the Hybrids are quoted as having much higher gas mileages than they truly get are because the techniques used in the US use emissions tests to determine the mpgs. Since the Hybrids have much cleaner emmissions than a regular auto does, the tests give conclusions that are innacurate, and basically useless. To really be able to measure the mpgs of hybrids, new tests will have to be devised so that the methods use actually apply to them and any other car on the road, rather then using the 30 year old techniques still in use, that were around long before hybrid cars had even been dreamed of.

Also, from what I've read on how the cars work, they use the gas engine to maintain speeds above some set speed, which means any Highway driving is run off of the gas engine, this =s no improvement in gas mileage.

 

I drive roughly 1000 mile per week to and from work I had a 03 Accord averaging about 30mpg my wife drives about 450 miles per week she had a 2000 Expedition and was averaging 12 mpg . I was working to pay for gas which down here peaked at 2.19 per gallon currently 2.02 per gallon. I gave her my Accord and I went out and bought a 02 Toyota Prius I'm now getting somewhere between 45 and 47 mpg with the Prius. The Expedition is now semi-retired

 

I'm personally not a big fan of hybrids quite yet for the same reasons most of you stated above. I am a big diesel fan and have been ever since my dad owned a little diesel VW Rabbit back in the 80's. That thing ran forever (260k miles) and I remember it getting somewhere near 50mpg if not more. Hopefully one day all of that European diesel technology will make it's way over here to the States and catch on, but sadly I don't see it happening anytime soon.

 

LMAO..classic

 

As a Toyota mechanic, I can weigh in with some perceptions from the other side of the fence.

I can't stand the g#d$%m things. I get mad all over every time one of the bastard cars rolls into my stall. The mileage figures quoted on the TV and on the window stickers is pure fantasy. They are ONLY better in lots of stop and go driving over a standard small car. They regenerate voltage for the battery when stopping. Stop and go traffic takes advantage of the additional voltage being created, which raises the average mileage. They are not like a locomotive in that the gasoline engine adds to the electric motors, not just supplies the electricity for the electric motor. If you run one out of gas and keep driving, it absolutely fries the electric motor. Often, it kills the very expensive ($3200.00) battery. The total repair bill on a "out of fuel" situation last December, was $9700.00. Warranty covered zero. Toyota safeguarded themselves by inserting into the programming an "out of fuel" code that eliminates warranty claims for damage caused by running the car out of fuel. Any major repair to the electric motors (there are two), must be accompanied by a scan tool file providing evidence that low fuel was not an issue.

The Prius is an engineering marvel. The they are well built and actually overbuilt. They are baboon ass ugly. The navigation system is hysterically incorrect for plotting routes. I played with one on Monday attempting to plan a route from Lubbock to Dallas. (real complex situation, US 87 to Roscoe, I-20 to Dallas) The stupid thing plotted a course through Oklahoma City. LOL!!

The newest version is better than the first version. (obviously), but the first version seems to get better real world fuel mileage. There is a battery recall on the first version. (which is s pain in the a$$)

The only fun part of the Prius is connecting the scan tool, putting the ECM into "test mode" and boiling the tires off. The damn things make amazing torque when unlimited by the ECM. I am not sure how fast one will go in this mode, but they do move down the road. And all this while being almost silent. It is a hoot.

I am really excited by the new hybrid Highlander (insert sarcasm here).

The hybrid revolution is one of the big reasons I am attempting to escape the automotive repair business. I would rather take a public beating than work on the stupid things.

For what it's worth.

 

I believe I read that sometime in 2006, America's diesel formulation will revert to the European specs (or close to it). I think this will open up that whole market for what you call the "fun" diesels. Let's wait and see.

 

in real world american driving the prius doesnt get such extraordinary mileage. however, art is right that the energy consumption overall may be similar to a small honda, but it comes from different sources in the beginning. ie the extra cost of making this higher tech piece of machinery could have come from non-carbon sources, which is at least a stab at reducing that dependency.

as for diesel. the spec in the usa is only slightly higher in sulfur than in europe in real world terms (350ppm vs 50ppm) and this was the case in europe until last year. the difference in emmision sulfur between the 2 is almost negligeable and certainly has no performance effect. the usa is going to the same lower sulfur spec within a year or 2. the particulate matter spec is virtually the same so not important.

the big difference between the usa and euro spec is cetane; the cetane in the usa is about 43-45 whereas in europe it is 49-51. (think of cetane like octane as resistance to premature explosion in the piston). the usa refining set up is to process low grade crudes into mogas, and this disfavors the production of diesel and good cetane. the european ref system came from a different history and is thus setup to make less mogas and more, higher spec diesel. and this is also why the governmets initially felt compelled to raise tax rates on mogas consumption higher than that for diesel consumption - to encourage the use of what they could easily make and what was in the end a more efficient fuel. the result is that the percentage of diesel cars in the private car fleet of europe is 45pct, vs the usa at 0.25pct. quite a difference wouldnt you say?

diesel engines would be a better, cheaper, quicker solution to much of the energy consumption in the usa motor fuel sector. and the current common rail diesel engines spoken of here can be made to run on this lower cetane fuel, and all the manufacturers are working on it right now. but the demand has to be there, which in turn needs to result in a diesel pump in every gas station (take a look next time and see if you can find one - bet not). this will take time, but it is a valid effort. for all transport type utilitarian vehicles (mom's car or van, the farm pick-up, the limos, the executive saloon, the salesmans car etc) diesel is now a perfectly good alternative.
and that leaves the mogas to motorcycles and ferraris !