How far is too far for you when it comes to straying from original specs?

I wonder if any of the people on this thread who advocate major changes on
vintage Ferraris own one?

If people do not own one, then why should their comments have any value
whatsoever?

 

Just to check if opinion is backed up with knowledge, could you explain how Steve McQueen's NART Spider
was modified in any way from the 10 NART Spiders that were in fact produced by the Ferrari factory?

 

PPS: My 330 has a radio / 8 track stereo. I have never played the radio. Sometimes
when people are looking at the car, I play Luciano Pavarotti on the 8 track.

 

Fair point, but shouldn't that be applicable to most any other subject under the sun or on the interwebs/forums/etc., i.e. no personal experience or skin in the game, no need to be taken seriously since it's only an opinion based on nothing or at best, second hand information and we know what those are worth.
But then again, OP solicited just opinions, so now he has some here, even yours & mine.

 

See Marcel Massini's information here: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/135885869-post25.html

 

Ah, my arrogance has tripped me up. Or is it down? I apologize.

 

I'm more of an old school, heavy metal kind of guy, so if needed, I would only play LvB or Wagner in my cars. Maybe some Sibelius.
That J.L. guy from some TV show didn't seem that picky when called me years ago to see if I had any 16 & 2/3 rpm records for his newly acquired vintage Chrysler with "Hi-Way Hi-Fi". He just asked for "anything ?".

 

It's not really relevant as Mqueen modified what was at the time a brand new car (paint / interior). These days he would have been able to order a "tailor made" car in the exact spec he wanted.

M

 

This has been an interesting thread, so here are a few random comments:

1. I have spent the last 45 years helping people get Ferrari's back to the way God and Enzo built them. They always seem to perform the best as they were originally designed.

2. I used to be obsessive about originality in all areas, but after too many Concours "experiences", I am much more lenient today.

3. In the last few years, I and others have been removing aftermarket electronic ignition systems from the earlier cars, and reinstalling points and condensers. The reasons are reliability and surprisingly, better performance. The best running Daytona's usually are the cars without any electronic ignition (factory or aftermarket). I just removed the Bosch CD units (factory) from an Alfa Montreal and converted the car to points and condensers (the points were there already, just had to add condensers,and change coils). Car now runs the best it ever has, instant starting and great power. On our Ferrari vintage race cars, we use stock ignition systems and normally shift at 7,800-8,000 rpm with no problems and have never had an ignition failure. Remember, World War II was won using points and condensers.

I think some of this discussion comes from using the cars in today's environment. I recall an friend telling me many years ago, that he complained to Enzo Ferrari about his PF Coupe overheating in heavy traffic. Ferrari looked at him in shock, and said "when traffic gets heavy, you pull over, find an nice restaurant, have a glass of wine and when the traffic is gone, you proceed". I think many of the modifications we see attempted on the cars today are the result of using them in ways that the were not designed for.

I cannot remember the last time I used a radio in a Ferrari.

As for paint colors, as long as it was a legit color on the cars when new, I am good with it.

 

1960+ cars are very drivable. No need for any changes other than carrying a fire extinguisher.

Pete

 

Great comments and based on real experiences !

Last time I used a vintage car sound system at any considerable length was at show about 10 years ago where every spectator wanted to hear and see the one of the aforementioned 1950's Chrysler "HiWay Hi-Fi" 16 & 2/3 rpm record players working in a car we were exhibiting on behalf of the owner.

Althought, that particular car didn't come with it, it was a (rare) option available at the time and the owner wanted to add it.

Sad thing was that the owner had bought it from somewhere and had it directly shipped to "The Best" (in the U.S.?) shop specializing in vintage automotive radios and similar musical instruments.
I couldn't believe the horror we saw once it was unpacked, but after taking few photos and sending to the owner, I promptly told my assistant to completely disassemble and proceed with complete cosmetic, electrical mechanical restoration of it and have it done before the show, less than two weeks away.
My assistant said he's never worked on anything like it (to his defence, he's sheetmetal, body and paint guy) and asked if I had.
I told him no, but I was sure we can do (a lot) better than these hacks who apparently had charged an arm and two legs for the disaster that not only didn't work but looked like s**t.
It worked beautifully at the show and probably still does to this day, assuming it's being put to use.

 

I've delivered several 30's & 50's cars after major restorations without modern "improvements" but with confidence they could promptly be taken to any long distance trip.
Although it was only a 1961 vintage American luxury convertible, I actually had this happen after a near full restoration about 15 years ago. Once completed the owner flew in from Switzerland to vacation with some of his friends by driving it from L.A. to S.F. and then across the U.S. to N.Y., where he left it to some storage for similar future trip.
Called me about two and a half weeks later to inform me of "No problems !".
He's since driven it from N.Y. to FLA Keys and back (twice?), once from N.Y. to Vancouver (on Canadian side) and back (U.S. side) and most recently (couple of years ago) back to L.A.
And yes, the car now looks appropriately used and if he ever gets tired of it (which I doubt), it can be a great car for the next owner to restore.
The current owner has certainly gotten more than his moneys worth of real driving pleasure out of it. Now, there's a real vintage car guy.

 

strange to hear change to electronic ignition has not worked out for some, I changed a couple of troublesome engines with the result being total joy to drive compared to the hell before... while other engines continue to run fine with their original ignition...

save the original ignition bits for the occasion when chasing for 100 pts in a concours or retiring to a museum... uneventful drivebility is preferred, originality rules the value when it's time to sell

 

Could you tell us on which vintage Ferraris you
have made the change to electronic ignition?

 

Maybe you should have to verify Ferrari ownership to post anywhere on this site. But that's not really the point here. I think it's great hearing what people have to say. And while my Ferrari is only 42 years old and therefore not a true vintage Ferrari I have switched to electronic ignition and the car starts and runs very well.

 

... hell... ? How so ?
Was the entire OE points ignition system proprely rebuilt/serviced and distributor(s), incl. advances accurately adjusted/set off the car, in a distributor machine or ...?
And no other changes or services were performed at the time, so that this "total joy" result can clearly be attributed to just switching from properly serviced/set-up points system to electronic ?
Just curious.

Only time (in 35+ years) I've had unexpected problem with properly set OE points-type ignition systems was about 15 years ago on a 12K mile (U.S.) Daytona which suddenly started running less than ideal. The cause turned out to be loose (and oxidized ?) wire connectors to one of the Dinoplex modules.

All other unexpected ignition problems I've encountered over the years were on electronic systems, if the previously inadequately set-up points systems are not taken into account.

 

I am not trying to advocate or oppose electronic ignition on vintage Ferrari's. However, here are some of my experiences:

1. I have 275's that have run on points triggered CD units successfully since the late 1970s.

2. I have seen a number of cars in which the CD units (usually MSD) are too powerful for the distributor caps, and erode the caps to failure. This can be minimized by running smaller plug gaps than the CD manufacturers recommend.

3. Another issue I have found on Ferraris converted to electronic ignition is a tendency for the "trigger" wires to be susceptible to outside false signals. This causes "phantom" and mis-timed sparks. This is due to inadequate shielding of the wires or not enough metal in the underhood bodywork to absorb the corona effect of the spark plug wires. Daytona's are a real problem with this with some manufacturers CD units.

4. I have found that the less powerful CD unit used the better the car will usually run due to the above items.

5. The best results are obtained using inductive electronic units as opposed to CD units. They provide a longer duration spark with less total energy and disrupt the remaining original components less. They also run better at lower revs, and start better. I had a 250 GTO that would not run well with CD ignition, but installing inductive units made it run well, but not better than the standard points and condensers. If we install electronic units on street cars today, we always try to use an inductive system.

6. Remember, Ferrari did not switch to CD ignition for performance reasons alone, the primary cause was emissions. The new regulations in the USA were so strict for the day, that a single misfire during warm up would cause the car to fail the government certification process.

7. Everybody knows by now that the early electronic units were not highly reliable. That is why Ferrari had switches and instructions in the manuals on how to convert back to standard ignition.

8. As I stated before, we vintage race all the Ferrari's on standard points and condensers with no performance or reliability issues.

9. Over the years, I have come to realize that electronic ignition gives me no major advantages over standard ignition in Daytona's and earlier cars.

10. If switching to electronic ignition causes your car to run much better, there was something wrong with your standard ignition system.

These are just thoughts based upon experience, not trying to advocate for either method. If you are happy with how your car runs, all is good.

 

We can argue the merits of electronic or mechanical points, and I don’t think any of us would be wrong. Personally, I believe every car is mostly adequate for its own era and the mistake we make is that we try to bring these cars into our era, while the real enjoyment may come from moving ourselves to theirs--back to a time when the roads were open, and we were not so fattened with fast food and numbed by Prozac.

john

 

Well said, and as you say why we buy these older cars!
Pete

 

I agree. However, for safety reasons, I installed an auxiliary vacuum pump for the power brakes in my gtb as the original set-up gave little vacuum assist from the last carb. in a 6 carb. setup. It's invisible and makes stopping a less hair raising affair.
As for paint. I went with original Ferrari colors, not necessarily the color the car was originally delivered in.
I would never put a modern color on a vintage car. likewise, I would never use modern leather on the seats, opting instead for reproduction Connelly leather.
Correct finishes and plating is important, even though modern techniques have a slightly different look at times.
Internal engine parts, such as pistons made of modern materials are also acceptable. There is no reason to ignore 45 years of metallurgical progress.
Just my two cents. Any comments would be appreciated. As well, any questions.
Morris

 

Abbott 212 Export. (0165 EL) - should it be rebodiet to original?

250TdF that in late 50's been converted from open to covered headlights. Was that OK? Would it be OK today to do that?

03445 was red when it left the factory and 250 tdf 0723GT was two tone gold and is now blue/white. Should they be repainted to the original colors or is it OK since it was done early on?