@ Ivan "I would not be at all surprised if in the not too distant future you will be able to buy a nice Bora for $80K. Anybody that thinks this crazy market is the new "normal" is just fooling himself". --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- With the recent auction sales over the past weekend, I'd like to think that Ivan 1st comment is way off base but the second comment makes some sense. Let it be said that I acknowledge and respect his opinion, for he is certainly more experienced in the collector car world than I, but here's my humble opinion: I believe us Bora owners are enjoying the value of our model leap with each subsequent auction due to several factors all said here and other forums ad nauseum: 1) World wide increased interest in collector cars - especially Italian sports cars 2) World wide interest in Maserati as a brand 3) Interest - demand in 70's era cars (Bora decade) increasing due to buyers such as myself (in their 40's) now financially able to afford such luxuries. (I always wanted a car built the year I was born) 4) The obvious rarity and thus exclusivity of the Bora 5) Futuristic 70's Giugiaro design style coming back into fashion 6) Meteoric rise of all other comp cars of the decade (Boxer, Muira, etc) With sales such as the $264,000.00 restored car yesterday isn't it fair to say that the Bora will finally gain some of the respect it so longingly deserves? And if so, will it's reputation as a "sleeper" investment grade, classic exotic circulate through sites such as this etc. etc? Only time will tell, Scottsdale is the first event of the year, no doubt, these numbers will bring other Boras to auction in 2015 it will be interesting. A nice Bora for $80K in the not so distant future, I think not and hope I'm right. On the other hand $500K in the not so distant future??? I hope you're right. Once again, my humble opinion..... Comments welcome.
Dean, This is one of those discussions for which there is no "right" answer since it is impossible to predict the future. My comments are from someone that has lived through several market bubbles (not all car related) and have the scars to now be wiser. I think the biggest mistake people make when inside a bubble market is they try to rationalize why this time it will be different. Unfortunately bubbles behave in a rather predictable manner and this one exhibits all the attributes. Bubble markets are more about human behavior and less about the actual item (stocks, real estate, cars, etc) Also the only people that benefit from the increasing values are those that are selling. For everyone else all this is doing is substantially increasing your cost to own the car. I pity those that live in a state or country that taxes the cars based on market value. This bubble started since car prices had been too low for too long. For years I could find a decent Bora for $35K. As recently as 2012 I purchased two Boras for less than $30K each. As prices started to increase people started to see cars as a "safe investment". This creates an artificial lack of supply since people are not selling their cars and are waiting for them to appreciate even more. Meanwhile more people are joining the buying frenzy since they see it as a "safe" way to make money (remember the housing bubble ?) and they feel they need to buy now before the cars become unaffordable. Just remember that this supply and demand imbalance is artificial and is being fed by the bubble. When the bubble burst (and most do burst) then you have an over supply and no buyers, and prices spiral downwards. The person that bought his Bora for $35K can sell it for $80K and still make a good profit. For every person that bought a Bora for $264K there are 30 people that bought theirs for $50K or less. Think about that for a minute ... Ivan
And then there is is result: 1975 Ferrari 365 GT4 Berlinetta Boxer | Gooding & Company Still close to the traditional 2-1 ratio of Ferrari vs Maserati. It's a better example of a Boxer than the Bora was of it's marque but does anyone really believe and 100% authentically restore Bora would be almost twice the price of the one that just sold?
This is a key point and since there have been so few Boras restored to top quality those cars remain that much harder to find. Whereas ferraris and now Lamborghinis so some degree have enjoyed more years of having well restored examples on display at shows and available in the market place. I know we sound like a pair of Debbie Downers but really we're just seasoned and cautious. I hope we're wrong.
I too think caution is wise, just with the whole market not specifically Bora Incoming Inventory | DriverSource : Fine Motorcars | Houston, TX These guys have a Bora on its way, apologies if its already been posted Julian
Ivan, Bob & Julian, All good points and good advise on market forces and behaviors. I still think that my numbered points are valid and with so few of these cars built, will there ever be a market saturation? I take it from many comments on this board that us owners are not interested In selling even with the market bar rising as it likely did this weekend. If that is true, I'd assume that Same would be the case if the bottom fell out. It's not as if these cars are like over mortgaged property that get foreclosed on. I know my friends are all telling me.... Sell...sell... Sell.... But I like the car too much. If they get to 500k or the clutch goes again! Perhaps I'll reconsider!! In the meantime, I'm not really sure what to be cautious over or worry about, 500k, 264k, or 80k??? 1st world problems I can live with.
The only way I can see the prices sticking is if the new World order comes into play, i.e.. classic car collecting takes off in new markets like China otherwise the supply / demand see saw will eventually tip backwards...and yes the Bora has a nice small build number which can't be bad for values Julian
On the other hand here's a BB512 which listed very close in value to that Bora. The condition might not be quite as fresh though it's probably more original???
If your clutch goes again it's not the car's fault but I do understand the frustration. I have a friend who bought his Miura right a while ago but less than 10 years and when it reached 500K he sold it made a very tidy profit. That was about 5 years ago and he moved on. Now it's over 1 mil. That's not a rare car when compared with a Bora. Just how expensive are psychics?
Ok. so we got 1 bora at $264K. where are the other actual sale in the high figures? can someone help me and point me to it? i see a lot of high ask but the actual sale are not so abundant. This is important for insurance because so far we are told $110K+ So do the car advertised at $200K+ are mostly selling at $100K? The story told drpending on what side of the fence you are on, is the one of 2 tales.
Who knows, Ivan. But consider that this was an auction sale of a single vehicle. Not necessarily indicative of where "the market" is in general.
Despite our collective love for the Bora, I think the market doesn't and never will see the Bora as a stand-alone icon. It never left its mark on the public's automotive consciousness. Too understated. Overshadowed by the Miura. For this reason, my opinion is the Bora will always be a 'lagging indicator' to the prices and desirability of its gorgeous but less well-engineered "comps" - the Miura, 512BB and even the Mangusta. If there was anything rational about any collector craze, prices would level off at some 'reasonable' plateau… and stay there, pegged to inflation, because logic dictates it. That's simply never going to happen because there's always the human knee-jerk instinct to buy, or show the world your buying power, or have more stuff, or satisfy a childhood desire, or stroke thy ego, or have 15 minutes of fame, or buying the "sure thing" in a rising market - and it keeps driving prices up until there is an economic slap upside the head. That was the mid-late-80's bubble when Ghibli's were as high as $80k, I even saw an Espada advertised for an unheard-of $30k!!! LOL. Then the market "corrected" - what a euphemism - along with the economy. Merely due to human over-exuberance in the markets. Many years passed before there was a return to anything like those prices… and here we are. I'd like to know what you all think is providing the economic ability to sustain the upwards trend? Emotionally, I get it. But it's more than just "interest" in the cars. Where is the money coming from? The Chinese and Russians have already experienced years of huge economic gains and I haven't noticed them show any interest in the classics market. Brand-new exotics, yes. Classics no. Therefore I count them out as factors driving prices. The US stock market has been strong the past two years so that helps US buyers keep buying - but is that all? A whole lot of buyers are Europeans where Greece should be giving their economy the jitters, no? Or, is the collector car market still looked upon as the best place to invest (along with art, musical instruments, gems, etc) in times of uncertain stock market performance? As stated previously here somewhere, the breadth, volume and saturation of the current collector car frenzy is staggering. Which means any down turn will be equally staggering… I'm happy not to be dependent on the value. Ivan described the effect rising prices has on the inventory of collector cars already, but I'll add this description I wrote for a friend recently - "The rise brings in various profit seekers and provides the speculatory incentive to restore basket cases, barn finds and otherwise parts cars. This "inventory" is fed into the market to meet demand. High end investors buy only cars with provenance and originality, and the low-end "wannabe's" buy anything just to get a piece of the action. In between those ends are enough wealthy poseurs to maintain the upward value trend. As the cautious investors become satisfied with their gains, they start selling. At some point some prominent collector sells a huge lot, then everyone decides it's time to cash out, and the market really tanks. The best cars will "merely correct" and stay desirable. Any inventory that's less than perfect will suffer. Mid-range cars are most of the market and will tank. Profit-seeking restorers and low-end collectors are often left with undesirable un-sellable junk." As we get deeper into an age of electric throw-away-when-useful-lifespan-is-reached cars, I think strong interest will remain in the age of simpler, nuts & bolts, warts and all performance. 1960's and early 1970's GT cars are in the bullseye for this. I hope the market slows to a more sustainable growth rate, not a spike then fall. But I'm still buying Tesla stock. Nite nite, - Art
Maybe I missed something but I don't remember the Mangusta ever being considered a hot and terrific car until the more recent interest in it? The Ferrari Boxer and Miura have been way out there for a very long time by comparison. The Mangusta was no where in the late 1980s. Even the Miura wasn't that hot. Then Panteras were popular if not terribly valuable because they looked cool and were easy to modify. Still, the Mangusta was not sought out because the Pantera was a better car. But that has all changed now. There is zero inherently better in a Mangusta than a Bora save perhaps you like the looks of it better. Of course you can certainly say that about the Miura as well. It's just drop dead gorgeous to look at. Cars are coveted now for a variety of reasons which are not the same as those in the late 1980s. Trying to make rational sense of it is interesting. At the moment it's something akin to closing time at the pickup bar and everyone lassie looks hot. Ghibli coupes have become "Maserati" hot but not "Ferrari" hot. I don't know that they're very different in value from say an Islero but certainly they're not in 400GT territory. I see no reason why the Bora should perform in this market any differently than a Ghibli Coupe. It's a far more sophisticated car too.
To say that classic car values should only be pegged to inflation does not take into account supply / demand imbalances or the fact that prices were stagnant for many, many years. There are in fact more people in the collector car market worldwide than there have ever been previously and younger collectors, like dadams73 stated, are showing strong interest in 60s / 70s super cars and have far more buying power than their demographic had even 10 years ago. You can't unilaterally assume everyone is in it for the quick flip In the 80s these cars were at most 20 years old, which would be the equivalent to buying a circa '95 car today. Today these cars are 40 years old and appeal to a much broader audience. Is the market topping out for most cars? Most likely. When the economic picture changes will there be softening? Most likely. Will it be a permanent downward correction? Not likely. Collectors collect cars because they love them. Once the slack inventory gets gobbled up, the market will once again be looking for coveted cars and there will be people competing to acquire them and prices will once again trend upward.
I ask the same question again too as my prior post about factual sales is left unanswered. It seems my post was right. Ask is $200K but sales are around $100K. This is important for agreed insurance value. so far a Bora is stuck to $110K insurance max as I checked with a compary doing them. I see a lot of talk about $200K+ car but I can only say it is wishful thinking speculation unless someone show me otherwise. Here are sone factual auction sales from 2014: 2/6/2014: Yellow 72 Bora 4.7L at ~$124K 3/16/2014 : Red 73 Bora 4.9 L at ~$123K 1/16/2014: 72 bora at $107K 6/27/2014: 74 Bora at $88K 5/4/2013: 73 Bora 4.9L at $77K I guess the 2013 sale is a bit old so we can discount that one. This list makes the $260K sale quite an anomaly. If i miss something here, I'll be happy to be corrected. Where are the $200K or even the $150K+ sales?
As far as I understand, you are interested in the Bora's valuation for insurance purposes. Remembering that even a broken clock (which Hagerty certainly is!) is right twice day, I refer you to the Hagerty Classic car valuation for a 1978 Bora. I am sure they would be happy to insure your car for you as they have tried many times with me. Please note that the more desirable a Bora is in terms of its model year, its valuation (according to Hagerty!) goes down... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Find a VehiclePrice Guide Report 1978 Maserati Bora 2dr Coupe VALUE TRENDSCOMPARABLESMODEL HISTORYVIN DECODER The average value for this vehicle is:$149,545* Download PDF Choose a graph Value change over time Vehicle Value Details Insured Values Vehicle Condition 1 Vehicle Condition 2 Vehicle Condition 3 Vehicle Condition 4 Value change over time Vehicle Value Details Date Condition 4 Condition 3 Condition 2 Condition 1 Jan 2015 $120,000 $149,000 $184,000 $215,000 Sep 2014 $104,000 $130,000 $163,900 $200,000 May 2014 $95,500 $130,500 $150,000 $185,000 Jan 2014 $76,000 $109,000 $127,000 $162,000 Sep 2013 $74,500 $106,800 $126,000 $161,000 May 2013 $74,500 $106,800 $126,000 $161,000 Jan 2013 $74,500 $106,500 $126,000 $161,000 Sep 2012 $73,000 $104,000 $124,500 $157,500 May 2012 $70,000 $100,000 $121,000 $154,000 Jan 2012 $70,000 $100,000 $121,000 $154,000 Sep 2011 $67,800 $98,000 $119,000 $146,500 May 2011 $57,200 $69,000 $87,000 $110,000 Jan 2011 $54,000 $66,500 $82,300 $107,500 Sep 2010 $51,000 $62,800 $73,400 $95,000 May 2010 $50,900 $61,200 $70,000 $79,000 Jan 2010 $50,900 $61,200 $69,900 $78,500 Sep 2009 $50,900 $61,200 $69,900 $78,500 May 2009 $52,800 $63,000 $74,900 $87,500 Jan 2009 $55,500 $65,200 $77,000 $90,000 Sep 2008 $57,000 $67,900 $78,500 $91,000 May 2008 $57,000 $66,500 $77,300 $87,500 Jan 2008 $56,000 $65,300 $76,000 $85,000 Sep 2007 $50,000 $58,000 $66,600 $74,000 May 2007 $37,200 $49,000 $57,600 $66,000 Jan 2007 $36,200 $48,000 $56,600 $65,000 Sep 2006 $36,200 $48,000 $56,600 $65,000 Hope this helps. B.
Beautiful July, 1972 factory euro Bora (it would be perfect spec if not for the undesirable front hood grill) @ USD 340,000, from very reputable dealer. Anybody want to try buying it for 150-200K and show us the truth about these "fantasy" prices??? Come on help set the record straight!!! 1972/7 Maserati Bora for sale: Anamera Regards.
I appreciate your info and yes Hagerty pricing the cars for their year is an ackward approach.. But I am looking for factual sales. Now that car on sale for $340K is on sale, not sold, making my point. Today we see all sort of weird speculations all over with salesproof ads. As far as I now that car may end up being sold for $130K or may be the seller does not really want to sell unless he find a crazy bitting on it. A for sale is not a sold. a sales price means nothing with no buyers and 1 sale at 260K does not make a market.
I agree. However, this also shows me that the majority of owners are not selling. The bottom line is that the car market is supply and demand. They made very few Bora's If everyone is asking crazy money for the few that do come up for sale the prices will continue to tick upward. Once someone comes along that "has to have one" that guy will pay more. This is very entertaining for me as we have had our bora since 1977. It was always just a cool car to me. Still is.
