And by the way I do not have a flat rate book for the 308 carb version but I do have one for the 328. I have done both and the 328 is a far easier job. No distributors or carbs to service and adjust among other things. The factory book lists it as 51 hours not including the 15 hours for R&R. Who here is self serving? If you reject out of hand those most experienced and have nothing to gain from misleading you why bother to ask the question? You obviously already know everything.
So what I got out of this is confirmation that if everything goes perfectly it's a 45 hour job. That's all I wanted. See how easy that was? Now all I have to worry about is what doesn't go perfectly and how long that takes. To be continued...
Nope, what you got is it takes 45 hours to assemble a 308 engine with brand new components. That is not a rebuild.
If taking apart an engine and reassembling it with new components isn't a rebuild, I'd love to hear what your definition is!
Even after many post, you still miss the point. NO!! You did not get "confirmation that if everything goes perfectly it's a 45 hour job." You got many saying it is a long and precise job that takes skill and talent to know what to look for and how to measure it and what it should measure and how to change it when it measures wrong. Also, it was 100 hours if it all went perfectly. Anyway, after typing this I believe you might get what you want out of this, but only because you are not listening. The service time schedule that Ferrari has made available has nothing to do with real world time that is required to properly perform the service that Ferrari cars and engines need and deserve. Having been in a dealership for 22+ years, I can tell you there were many many hours of unpaid labor performed by me just to give the customer the end product he or she deserved, That is just the way it is. I have to price jobs every day and an engine rebuild is just time, machine work, and parts. No two will be the same but after I am finished they will all be outstanding. Rifledriver is saying the same thing. You should listen before you end up disappointed and very unhappy at the end results of your 45 hour engine rebuild.
That is not what he said. He said "it takes 45 hours to assemble a 308 engine with brand new components". An engine rebuild requires disassemble. I disassemble every engine I rebuild, mainly because I want to see every part. The rebuild is being done for a reason and that reason and the associated cause needs to be located and properly addressed. That means looking at and measuring everything to make sure the parts are within specification and if not getting them re-machined or replaced with new parts that again need to be checked to make sure they are within specification and will properly fit. Remember we are addressing an issue. If we were just working on a new engine that had no problems and you just had to take it apart and put it back together, then maybe 45 hours. But that is not what we do. We solve problems, the engine is coming apart because something is not right. That has to be corrected. That takes time. So, to address you statement: An engine rebuild is the process of disassembling, cleaning, checking, & measuring every component to insure proper clearance and fitment for possible reuse and then replacing or having re-machined any component that fall outside the window of reuse. Cleaning again and assembling the said components to complete the rebuild. NOT bolting together a bunch of new parts.
Doing an engine rebuild, on a Ferrari/Porsche, is a high risk proposition. If ANYTHING goes wrong, you will be eating the cost to redo it... And in my limited experience, even brand new parts may su*k... On my ongoing 930 rebuild, BRAND NEW bearings were more out of spec than the used ones. I had to find a place to recoat the old bearings... Some of the BRAND NEW VALVES were out of spec, thinner then the old ones, go figure... The BRAND NEW intermediate shaft bearing was slightly too thick at its flange to use... The BRAND NEW piston rings, had gaps that were already in the midgap range, but better than the old...not many options here... The list goes, on, and on, and on... Each time, took weeks to months to get new parts that worked... Really made me wish I were rebuilding a chevy, and could just go down the street and buy parts...
Just a few of the many reasons I avoid engine overhauls at almost any cost. It is a bad business model. For not much money I take liability for the bad work of others. Just try and get them to be accountable when something goes wrong. I did a big rebuild/modification on my own 328. Someone here asked what it would cost to do one for them. I responded "More than the car is worth". I had no desire to enter that conversation.
I am rebuilding my 1980 308 GTSi right now. This is not my first rodeo in rebuilding engines as I used to design/build/test research racing engines/cylinder heads in my own firm for IMSA/Cup/TransAm/etc. for many decades. This is my first rodeo for Ferrari though. I have owned this car for 25+ years, first rebuild I wrote a cheque as I did not have the time for my own project, this time I am "semi-retired" so I am doing most of the work, including some of the machining, myself. Last rebuild was in 1996 so there was time for "gunk" to accumulate. It took me approx. 8 hours to unhook everything to pull the engine, including pulling it. I could have done it faster but I made notes about what needed to be addressed as I pulled everything off. Thanks to this site I used the engine pulling method described. When it was time to pull the motor it literally took 5 minutes, very flawless and safe process. It took me 36-40 hours to disassemble the engine, clean all parts, chase all threads, inspect, measure and make notes to be used for rebuilding. I have not taken apart the transaxle yet, that is next. It has taken me about 20 hours so far to identify, source and purchase most parts to rebuild the engine. I have a 360 crankshaft I am putting in and I have not spec'd out the pistons yet. Price and quality shopping is important. I have seen some gouging due to the Ferrari name but in most cases the credible suppliers are not too ridiculous. Thanks again to this site for providing a good cross-reference. I did note that some parts sourced out of the UK are often better priced with comparable quality versus parts sourced in North America (I am in Canada). So I am about 68 hours in with about 4-8 more hours to spec out and purchase the final parts. I have not done any machining yet or removed the sleeves (the new ones arrive today). For me, 100 hours is light. I would guess at this point that it will take me 150-200 hours in total to finish the engine and re-install it, dyno ready. Yeah, I am probably going overboard in terms of being careful however my experience tells me it is more important to "be effective before being efficient". Someone who does Ferrari engines regularly would be faster however things like cleaning, measuring and documenting are critical to making sure that the project goes well. That takes the same amount of time regardless of whether you are doing once or repeatedly. Best, Steve
Hi Peter, I came late to this party and just read through the posts. It would be helpful to know who is doing the work (you, generalist shop, specialist etc.?) and the condition of the engine (miles, been apart before, stood for years...) Mine stood for 16 years which slowed things significantly. It had 36k miles and I did a lot of non-standard things (348 crank, custom parts etc.) I would call myself an average DIY mechanic and have probably rebuilt about 20 engines. This was my first Ferrari engine. Many things took lots of time but no work (waiting for parts/tools, hanging the transaxle from the heads to loosen them etc.) I probably spent 100 hours reading on here and elsewhere but to me that was interesting, rewarding, and not work. It probably took me 20 man-hours to get the transaxle out (had help for some stages.) The exhaust manifold nuts took a few hours alone and one wheel well would not come out without a long fight! Then about 20-25 to get the engine apart (stuck heads was 2-3 hours spread over 2 weeks), 10-15 hours cleaning, 3-5 hours measuring, 30-40 hours assembly (excluding the 20-30 hours extra time due to custom pistons, cams, 348 crank etc.) 20 hours to change 2nd synchro, shifter seals, and seals in the diff and another 30-40 hours for "while I'm in there" things (all rubber hoses incl. to front, suspension bushes while they are easy to reach, CV joints and boots...) As others have said, the new parts don't always fit well and small things can take a very long time due to corrosion or the need for special tools or for triple jointed contortionist midget arm wrestlers to help. I have heard from a couple of people who started 308 engine projects with professional help and quickly realised that the economics don't add up. If you aren't doing the work yourself and are not too sentimental about the car, it's often cheaper to clean up and sell what you have and upgrade to a better 308.
The cleaning and restoration of parts is often forgotten... Lets not forget replating... Replacing all the fuel lines... Crinkle coating the valve covers... Using a tiny brush to make the motor spotless... I probably have over 50 hours into the testarossa major just doing silly stuff like that... And lets not forget prayer time... Oh... Jesus, please PLEASE let the motor run as it should, without any new noises, leaks, clanks, or piston to valve clashing... You must also allow time to repeat the same prayer the first 50 times you start the car...
Agree with points of commenters: I included the time for making some special tools to pull things apart properly, I did not want to damage good parts Fuel and coolant lines are another story! I started to replace them all, time consuming but necessary if you want a safe car, great point by bpu699...mine were harder than steel! Agree with derekw's point about the economic viability of rebuilding these cars, it is hard to justify paying someone to do all the "proper" work, easier to buy a car where it is done or one that is better starting point (no choice for me, my wife owns the car and she loves it and the memories after 25+ years of ownership so not an option for me) Have never installed an engine in any of my race and/or hot street cars without dynoing on the stand before install in the last 29 years...same reason I never sold a race engine to my customers without dynoing it...learned that lesson 30 years ago... Will either rent the time on an engine dyno that has the right fixtures (sold my own dyno years ago, changed career to make $ to play more!) or build my own fixture and use it on the system I regularly use today...easy to identify and fix problems when engine is out of the car...then I always dyno the cars on a chassis dyno after install for the same reason...you verify the system and can fix problems in a controlled environment...yeah, it costs $ and time but when you get it right and it is reliable the $ and time cost is trivial (maybe 5-10% of an engine rebuild all costs in)... Making a sleeve puller right now as sleeves arrive today I also learned a long time ago to keep a log of all measurements and parts used, including part #'s and sources, as well as manuals and instructions, I already have 12 binders (by category, i.e. engine, transaxle, electrical, etc.), say about 2 feet of docs on this project...explicit knowledge like that (including this site) is real useful in getting you up to speed and avoiding many mistakes Car is 1980 GTSi with modified CIS, 360 crankshaft, 9:1 compression, 1mm larger intake valves, better shaped exhaust valves, mild head porting, supercharger (6-8psi), adjustable cam pulleys, Webcam camshafts, aftermarket headers/exhaust, Electromotive ignition, bigger oil cooler, aluminum radiator, better front radiator fans, NFF water pump, etc. plus other chassis and electrical improvements. Building moulds right now for carbon fibre hood, trunk, GTS top and bumpers (full functionality, not race parts, just lighter as mine is a steel street car, this car is really heavy!). I am on sabbatical this year (just retired from being an adjunct professor for 15 years for that German car company that is located in Stuttgart) and the institution I teach/research at here in North America granted me a sabbatical on a related subject so I have the time to play...good thing as this rebuild is a real time sucker.
bpu699, I did 3 major research projects on turbocharged Porsches over a 5 year period (fully funded fuel injection research with Porsche and Bosch, great work, getting paid to hot rod and experiment!)...built 7 race engines in that period (research used Shell 91 pump gas)...you are absolutely right in your comment! Bottom line, believe nothing and measure/check everything! I just sold my 930 race car, one of the reasons why was because of what you detailed in your post. Great car, wicked fast, 1,000kgs, but... I now race a 7 litre Panoz (SB Ford), supply chain quality is much higher on average, time saved due to quality parts availability versus Porsche is not even comparable...
I've gotta say, I'm laughing that not one of you 'professionals' were able to accept my original post premise and just answer the question. The only person who gave a reasonable and rational answer, and not in the least self serving, was an amateur! Nevertheless, I thank everyone for their input. Many of you have helped me previously either directly or indirectly, and I know I speak for everyone on fchat when I say your input is gratefully appreciated.
The original premise was addressed. You just refused to accept real life on a 40 year old engine is not merely unbolting parts and bolting more on. Most of us do not live in Alices Wonderland.
Brian, I DO accept what you say. But you're making assumptions based on your general experience, which may not (and actually aren't) applicable in this case. I didn't want to bore the viewers with all the details! You just needed to accept my premise (no, it wasn't addressed imo) but you weren't able to keep your previous and obviously valid experiences out of the equation. I don't blame you for that.....working on Ferraris is seldom a rewarding experience IME and things USUALLY turn to crap, no doubt about it.
Cannot recall the last time someone asked a question, then insulted everyone who offered insightful answers.
Do another search using Google. There’s quite a few threads here where professionals have given advice only to be kicked in the teeth.
