How many pitstops per race would you like?

Yeap. France 2004 was awesome!

 

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Pete

 

Respectively absolute rubbish ...

Pitstops mean the drive does not have to pass and thus waits for a pitstop. Removing pitstops will mean they will find a way passed ... and they can, all this talk of aero this and that is simply bollocks.

MS and Hamilton, etc. can pass when they want to, they just don't need to with pitstops involved.

Ban them to get racing back is the only answer.
Pete

 

Respectively absolute nonsense.

The lack of overtaking is widely known and everybody, EVERYBODY on the grid to teamowners to team principals knows that overtaking is almost impossible today simly because of the aerodynamics of the car.

You have to be atleast a second quicker per lap if not more to even get a chance of overtaking.
The reason is because the car in front "destroys" the airflow for the car behind meaning he will not get any downforce on the front meaning the car will understeer.

This is not something that´s only in F1. Believe it or not but this goes for GT cars in some cases to.
A great example is the Laguna Seca battle in ALMS GT2 between the Porsche and Corvette.
When he got to close the car would understeer slightly.

By not having Pitstops it would be long train basically on most tracks. Because if you cant be close enough out on the straight you wont be able to catch him before the braking zone. Why do you think FIA are working like mad men to improve overtaking?
Why do you think we will have a moveable rearwing this year?

A great example of this is Parabolica Monza. You brake for the turn then it´s full throttle through the chicane. It´s impossible for a car to stay behind another car through there in todays cars.

 

Yes I know all that ... but it's funny that LH and MS can pass when they really need to.

So I'll put it this way. You can change the car as much as you like but if you still have enforced pitstops the drivers will still not take the risk and pass on the track, instead they will go for the safer option and wait for a pitstop.

MS did this over and over again when he had a miles faster car than everybody else in the dominating Ferrari days. The car and MS combination was more than 1 second faster than the other car but he just followed and used pitstop strategy to pass.


Passing is ALWAYS difficult when the cars have similar speeds, aero or not. I can prove this if you like. Next time you visit Sydney we'll go for a go-kart race. I will start in front (in the agreed slightly slower car) and you can try and pass me. I will position my kart so you cannot pass all day long.

You also need drivers that are prepared to take a risk, and why take that risk if you can use pitstop strategies instead?. Makes no sense. Imagine going to the team manager after a crash due to a failed passing attempt and saying I gave it a go!, he would go nuts at you because you only needed to wait 5 laps (say) for a pitstop ...
Pete

 

spot on.

 

I would be happy with anything >1

What year was it at Magny Cours when Schumacher was able to win with a crazy 4 stop strategy because the pits were so short. To me that's drama and excitement, maybe not the most exciting times but it still required a lot of skill as well as strategy

 

There's no reason why the cars and tracks can't be modified to facilitate passing AND have pit stops.

 

Okay I have to ask ...

Other than enabling passing why do you even like pitstops at all? Are you impressed by the mechanics work or something?
Pete

 

As a wise man once said...

 

Yeah I really enjoy watching the parade as we all wait for the pit stop ... not.

Pete

 

Pete please start reading my posts
The cars and the tracks can be made more pass friendly which will take the pit stop's role in the passing situation away.
You're blaming the pit stops because they are a last ditch solution to a problem. You don't solve the problem by removing them.

 

I believe you do.

No matter how much they change the cars and tracks, the safest way of passing is via a pit stop ... there are millions of dollars on the line during a race, team want results, thus the team manager wants his car to finish. A driver that takes more risks than they should is no longer what they want ... thus they will be told to wait until the pit stop.

Only solution is to remove mandatory pit stops IMO, but I've already said all this so maybe we both should read each others posts properly .
Pete

 

Fair enough. But what horrid effect might civility have on the F1 Thread?

 

Nobody does that.

oh..wait....

 

I'd respond but what would be the point?

THEY might be right about this forum

 

Think we'll have to agree to disagree ... I simply like racing on the track.

Pete

 

We can agree on that. In my perfect world there would be no need to use pit stops for passing since on-track passing would be much easier.
If on track passing was easier would you still dislike pit stops?

 

Yes.

I've always hated them. Do you know that Bernie made them mandatory to supposedly improve the "TV show" ... nothing to do with the racing or passing, he simply thought they added something. All they did is increase the team costs, increase the danger (slightly) and reduced passing.
Pete

 

Actually they predate Bernie (hard as it is to believe that anything predated him!) and shouldn't be dissed just because he likes them. As far as I know he's also pro puppy and ice cream.
Being able to run lighter cars and grippier tires should quicken the pace and pit strategy adds another dimension.

 

Not true.

Bernie made them compulsory. Before Bernie did this they were not compulsory and Williams was the first to use them in the modern era to run a lighter car to make their Cosworth engined car more competitive against the turbos. This was before fuel tank size and refuelling was banned. Note pitstops were not banned but there was no longer an advantage.

So yes we used to have pitstops but they were not artificial, ie. even if you made a car today with a large enough fuel tank to run the whole race and were happy with the tyres you were running with you HAVE to pit. Its a joke IMO.

IMO we should return to tyres and fuel tanks that CAN last the full distance and if you want to pit so be it (up to you), but you are only allowed 4 people max to work on the car. Just like the number of cylinders in the engine, this should be up to the team not restricted by the idiots running the show.
Pete

 

I'm talking a bit further back. There have been more races run in the history of the sport with pitstops than without.
Back in Ferrari's earliest years n F1 they ran large normally aspirated engines against the Alfa's blown ones sacrificing on track speed to save time lost in the pits. A choice of strategy that was not forced on them. Pit stops are part of racing and a part of the Ferrari tradition.

 

Yes true.

But again they were never compulsory then. Now they are. They should not be, and then we have the same situation as back in those earliest years of F1.

Racing should not be contrived. It should be about racing and may the best car and driver win, BUT and this is a big but we can now make cars race a full race distance on the same tyres and a single load of fuel so the need of a pit stop has gone. Back in those days even Ferrari needed a pit stop to change tyres as they could not last the distance. Heck often the cars could not last the distance and we had drivers taking over cars ...
Pete

 

Modern racing is largely artifice. The only question is which artifice best enhances the sport.

 

Hamilton has done ALOT of overtakes since he got into F1. Not pitstop overtakes but real, beautiful overtakes.
Sometimes it doesn´t matter who you are, if the guy is somewhat comparable to you in speed it´s not possible to pass him because you can´t follow him closely out on the straight.

Yea i would love to do some gocarting but it also depends on the track. If it´s a tight indoor track like Monaco style then of course it´s hard but if you have a somewhat wide track it is possible to overtake if your just as fast. You just have to work hard to do it.

Sure you can drive defensively but when doing that you lose time yourself so if i set up a better line through the last corner for example which you took a tighter turn through to defend i will have a better topspeed then you at the end of the straight and hopefully take advantage of it in turn 1.
There´s alot of tricks you can use to try and overtake and get the car ahead where you want it etc.

How many pitstop overtakes did you see last year? Only one i can remember right away is Alonso/Button at Monza.
I´m sure there´s more but F1 drivers will try to overtake if they think they have a chance at doing so. You have to be quite alot quicker in todays cars to really execute overtakes safely and not divebomb the guy infront.

All the drivers know how to overtake, but of course if you can´t do it safely then for sure you hope to be quicker when the guy infront pits or vice versa.

Alonso/Massa-Hockenheim is a great example. Alonso was way way quicker and tried several times to get past. It just wasn´t possible. I don´t think Schumacher or Hamilton could have pulled it of either really.