How much value do you put into a PPI?

Welcome to Earth.

 

Wasn't much of a PPI in 3 hours.

Hope it didn't cost you much.

 

Troy, I would agree, a PPI is certainly helpful but it doesn't provide a 100% complete picture of the car's condition. A really good PPI will include a leakdown test, a check of all fluids, pads, alignment, a check for body damage, leaks, etc. Any used ferrari is going to have problems of one sort or another - they all do. Just because your PPI comes up with a list 20 needed repairs, that doesn't mean the seller has to knock off the price the cost of all 20 repairs - it's a used car for god's sake.

As a seller, I absolutely hate it when a potential purchaser takes the car for a half day to a specialist repair shop, brings it back with a list of suggested repairs totaling $X,000 and expects me to knock off that off the asking price. I usually say "sounds like you need to go buy a new car from the dealer" then thank the person for their interest and then bid them good day. Half the time they're calling me back the next day offering me the full asking price....

 

Had a PPI done on my 96 355 before I bought it. Took a full day and cost me a good couple of coins. This was my first Ferrari and I would consider myself very "book read educated". In other words, I didn't know much! The shop filled out the 8 page report outline I provided them. Their overall report was the car was well sorted and needed a few details attended to. I was a little skeptical when I looked at the leakdown section as they didn't fill in the values for each cylinder, just wrote acceptable.

After I got it home my local mechanic (2NA) found both CV boots torn and no grease. I have put approx. 3k miles on since I bought it in Oct 07. Car is in for 30K now - AC compressor shot, valve guides, burnt manifold. Fortunately for me, I at least knew what to expect and was prepared for it. I really like the car but in hindsight I probably should have passed for a better sorted one. Emotion and excitement tend to take over with these cars.

The PPI I GOT was marginally helpful. I went about this half blindfolded so I should not be surprised. On the bright side I will have a very well sorted car, just cost me a pretty penny to get it that way.

 

How much is a "...couple of coins..." ? Two quarters, dollars, hundreds or thousands?

 

Boy, you really like people to blab out their weaknesses! OK, I'll bite. I spent $500.00. Seemed like most were in the $300.00 to $500.00 range when I was looking around. I think I got about $100.00 worth of value from it. I would still get one on a F car in the future except i would be a little more critical on whom I choose for the job.

 

Since this has gone kind of anti-PPI, let me tell you quite honestly that about a 4-5 hour PPI on a Testarossa saved me about $30,000. This car had both two cylinders way down on compression, but also a developing problem with the gearbox. Repairing it would have been equal to the ask price of the car.

A shame, because it was an extremely presentable car just on the cosmetics side of things.

James Patterson here in Dallas told me some great advice on how to get this PPI done (it was in Chicago by a dealer). He said - first you put it up on a lift and check for damage, leaks, etc. on the underside. Then, you run a compression and leakdown. You stand there personally and watch them do it - a good chance to see the condition of the plugs too.

If it won't make compression and leakdown, have them stop right there and go look for another car. (He also wisely said - don't try to second guess the numbers by driving it; you cannot tell on a high-torque 12 cylinder like a TR).

Money well spent in my case - $500 for the work, plus about $500 or so to drive up there from Dallas and check it out for myself.

 

I think there was a poll done here, about a year ago and IIRC about 70% of buyers Did NOT have a PPI done before buying. I think the PPI is usually a "filter" used to narrow down a group of possible cars. Once it passes a PPI , the buyers usually grab a plane ticket and visit the car in person, or have a local Fchat member inspect the car for them.
I think most buyers(70%) have the cars inspected by fchat members and keep the $500 ppi money for repairs(or plane ticket) instead.
I didn't have a PPI done on my car before purchase but I saw extensive records-detailed photos and spent time talking to the owner and mechanic that did the work on it.
I didn't even fly out to see it. Mine arrived as a great, well maintained car. No regrets.

 

I'm not anti-PPI. Actually I was just pointing out my own Naiveté in getting this PPI done. Being there to actually watch them do it would be great. Just wasn't possible in my case. I didn't have the opportunity to get them to repeat (or actually get them to do) the leakdown test. Also as I have subsequently learned all leakdown tests are not created equal. I do not have the knowledge to tell if they were doing it correctly in the first place. As they say - you get what you pay for and pay for what you get!

 

A proper PPI can be very valuable. For me, the main concern is WHO is doing the PPI !

I would rather spend the money to have someone like Eric Sandor from Auto Gallery in Los Angeles or Rifledriver to do a proper PPI and then proceed from there.

A PPI is not a proceedure that 100% predicts the future. It can however, uncover current and future maintainence issues. Part of a proper PPI should include an interview with the previous owner and service personel when possible, as well as an examination of available records. Then an examination of the vehicle itself. Three hours seem a bit quick. A buyer also has to be reasonable with the PPI. A seller who is honest and genuine, still doesn't want his vehicle dimantled during a PPI. The tricky part is not to be lazy because you are excited about your new purchase. In the car business some salesmen refer to that excitement as "ether".

The PPI of my 360 Spider revealed it had leaking soft top hydraulics. It was also very close to needing a clutch. I negotiated with the seller on the hydraulics. Most important to me was the basic soundness of the car. A PPI seems like cheap insurance.

Regards,

Stew

 

If your sale price reflects the actual repair status of our car, then okeydokey. If not, a PPI could unearth a great deal of repair and deferred maintenance = cost. In that case, the Seller has every reason to blow you off.

When I say a PPI, I mean a full blown, professionally accomplished one of which I have never seen one that didn't take a day or more.

 

Absolutely, and I would have done the same thing myself except that our sponsor Norwood Performance took pity on me and told me what to look for.

For one thing, the leakdown has to be done at the true TDC on each cylinder or it is useless.
It's not hard to watch and get a sense of what is going on.

It is beyond the bogus to just write in "acceptable" on each cylinder. This is Pizzing in your pocket and telling you it is raining.

 

Yes I've been told now about how leakdown is properly measured. I do wonder how many people are really proficient at doing one.
In retrospect they probably never really did a leakdown on the engine. Live and learn I guess. Guess they figured that since I was an "Out of Towner" I wouldn't be back anyway.

You reminded me of one of my favorite movie lines "Don't be pissin on my back and telling me it's just the rain!"

 

Yes, quite true no doubt. I think in those situations where the buyer is calling back a day later and offering full asking price they've come to the (very real and true) conclusion that most of the other ferraris for sale have their own set of issues and needed repairs as well, so, ultimately, if they're not willing to go buy a new ferrari they're going to have to buy a used one with some wear and tear no matter what. Yes, some are better than others, but most all need some repair and have issues. In other words, just because my particulr car may have some issues and needed repair doesn't mean I need to take that off the asking price because the alternatives (other ferraris for sale) aren't perfect cars either. At some level it just boils down to supply and demand.

 

A $300 PPI back in 2001 saved me thousands of dollars which were deducted from the asking price of my 328, and also revealed the dubious nature of the NY-area broker (whose name /company I will not mention. Suffice it to say that, either he deliberately mislead me and the owner, or was totally incompetent. Thankfully the seller didn't appreciate being conned and decided to deal directly with me.). The leak down and compression tests were invaluable as well so I'd say that when it comes to a Ferrari, ANY degree of PPI, coupled with a prospective buyer's willingness to educate themselves about the car, plus documented service records, all go a long way toward ensuring a painless post-purchase experience and hopefully many years of enjoyment afterward.

 

Since we are talking "in the now" the Buyer has the unique advantage here. Why not clear up all the issues, I don't agree that all F-Cars have issues, btw, and see many (first choice) cars that do not.

If you are working with impulse Buyers like Jim Rodgers (from another thread) only, then there is no telling what you can get them to do.

If you are wanting to deal with educated Buyers, then the way to proceed, imo, is to clean the car up, leave no issues, and open the door for a full PPI.

If you want to deal with anyone, clean the issues up, show them that you have, challenge the Buyer with the facts of the market and give him the best choice. Your car at market price.

 

Excellent advice and the "'standard" form-based PPI isn't enough either. There should be several additional inspections which are derived from each F model (360, 430, spiders, etc). These inspections may not be listed on anyone Dealer's PPI.

I really like the fact you included a personal inspection, btw. If you can't make it, find someone who can especially if they are better qualified.

 

Hi Woojer

Agree with you - best approach is to try to sort out the car so there's minimal issues and then be very direct/straight forward about the car when dealing with a potential buyer. That makes total sense, and is good business policy.

I haven't seen one PPI inspection come back without some issues however, have you? There's always going to be at least a few things that need sorting...with any used ferrari. Fact is, most used ferraris for sale typically have quite a decent sized list of issues such as deferred maintenance or corrosion or any number of things. My typically well-sorted ferrari is going to be no better or worse than the average other used ferrari for sale, so, again, if the buyer wants a used ferrari they're going to have to deal with a few issues. My car doesn't need to have the asking price knocked down by the estimated repair costs because the buyer doesn't ever have a range of perfect used ferraris to select from in the alternative for the same price. How do I know this principal is true? I've sold a bunch of ferraris, alfas, mgs, porsches, maseratis, etc. and I always get my reasonable FMV price.

 

I haven't seen a PPI on an Italian exotic that didn't have something wrong with it, how else can the shop make any money ?

Also agree that the issues are divided into two camps based on expense and need. A Scud with a stripe coming unglued is one thing, a 430 with a cracked manifold system is quite another. On the need side, you might want to fix the stripe but you need to replace the brake pads or reshoe the car (for instance one tire which is relatively inexpensive).

In a six figure transaction (sale of a used Ferrari), a couple of thousand dollars shouldn't make a difference. Well, for as long as they stay in the six figures

 

A ppi is only as good as the guy performing the inspection. I have re- inspected cars that we imported into canada and all we sub standard.