How much will this cost to fix?

Amen, good luck, sounds like a cool project.

 

You asked for advice.....we gave you sound advice, maybe not what you want to hear, but dealing with salvage title is whole different ballgame.....I still tend to suggest you should walk away. You may have been getting fatherly advice because it probably seems to most of us you have already decided to purchase even though you probably should not unless you can buy it for about $50k. That's all it's really worth in the condition it's in. Then you can afford to put the $50k it may need and have $100k in a car that "may" be worth only $90k with a salvage title fully repaired. You have to remember that Banks won't loan on it, so you it's only worth what someone will pay for it.... you have to think of it in those economic terms. The 360 Spyder market is very soft right now with no signs of firming up since the intro of the 430. You can get a good one for well under $150k now if you shop around. Coupes seem to be holding their value a bit better.

1. First off the photos don't show enough of the crash damage to make any kind of proper estimate. Get more detailed photos. Wheel off, undertray off, inner panels off, etc.
2. Hire an experienced Ferrari mechanic in the area to go look at it if you can that also knows about crash repairs/body & paint. Mechanicals are usually done by the repair shop and then frame/paint & body done by the paint shop, so you will need someone that can help you with both. If at all possible, pay to have it towed to a qualified shop and pay no less than 6 hours labor to really inspect the car including checking ride heights on scales etc to see how tweeked the frame is. If not fly down there with someone like me with experience and knowledge of what these parts cost and what the repairs will cost and try to do as much as possible by measuring frame dimensions and basic things like wheel base side to side and toe, etc. Look hard at the aluminum frame, that's the real ticker in the repair. Replacing parts and paint and body is easy, the frame is your critical aspect of do or don't on this project.
3. After you get a more detailed analysis, prepare an estimate on what it will cost in real dollars to have it fixed professionally and 100% correctly. You may even want to hypothesize the extent of the damage and try to get some estimates of that type of repair beforehand. Yep, price up worse case scenario, i.e. right suspension complete, 100 hours frame repair labor, some frame components, new wheel/tire, axle assembly, possibly differential if it took a hard hit and the axle punched into it hard (commonly need replaced on lateral impact) rear quarter panel and all inner panels,
4. Deduct cost of complete repairs from current value of "clean titled" car and then deduct another 30-50% and that should be your offer or final bid on what the car should be bought on a fixer upper basis.
5. Buy the car, strip it, part it out and from the money you make, buy a car with a clean title. You'll have fun disassembling and not be stuck with a "salvage titled" Ferrari.

If you really want this car, you need to get more serious than just asking for advice or opinions on this board. These are just the starting point of my suggestions/recommendations, and yes I have lots of experience fixing broke/crashed cars as I do it for a living for what it's worth. I also have the proper frame jig "celette bench" to do these type repairs and I still think you need to be very careful and seriously think about passing. Check out my website on my profile and you can email me if you like away from this forum for real help.

 

Jim,
I am sorry that I (along with others) pissed on your parade. However, you asked what people thought about the cost of doing this car with very little to go on and did not mention you are already all set to jump in with both feet. You were met with unanimous skepticism about this project from people with clear minds and, as in Speedmore's case, a lot of experience. What few "facts" could actually be offered on such limited info, were in fact offered. If you wanted us to "rah rah" the idea instead of playing devil's advocates, you should have said so up front. BTW, I am older than you, so if I sounded fatherly, so be it.

Good luck,
Dave

 

My experience has been that a whole lot of dreamers bid up wrecked Ferraris to prices that make no economic sense. You're going to be competing in your bidding with people who have no idea what it costs in time and money to restore or rebuild a Ferrari.

I once watched a completely wrecked, unrepaired Ferrari 348 TS sell for over $39,000...and a low mileage 348 TS with no damage history and a real title sell for $42,000 in the same week.

That's just nuts. Frankly, you'd be better off low-balling Ferraris on eBay, knowing that whatever car you eventually won would really be a project car by the time you saw it in person.

But, if this particular Ferrari has your name on it, then go for it and make her right again.

In all fairness though, used Ferraris *are* project cars to begin with. It's the passion that makes the effort worthwhile, but make no mistake there is effort involved even on the cars that haven't been wrecked.

 

Yin, most of these cars don't make economic sense, it is about the hobby side...

 

There is a 99 360 on cars.com right now with 10Kon it, asking 109K. Another high mileage at 99K. I have seen a few coupes priced just below 100K. I think if your primary purpose is to track it, a higher mileage car might be the ticket. They should be well serviced and sorted and probably driven easier than low mileage cars. I have been mulling over getting a dedicated track car myself although not necessarily a Ferrari and I think that's the direction I will go.

Dave

 

That's true. There's an implicit norm for expenses/losses for 355's that everyone's buying into, that the average non-F-car person already considers "extravagant". But beyond that norm, someone might be OK with an extra $10K, but scream (or get screamed at ) if it goes to an extra $50K. That's the part I couldn't judge.

 

Frame time is frame time and it just takes that long. You've got 8-10 hours alone just setting the car up on the frame machine before repairs begin and may run higher depending upon what must be removed to perform repairs. That no. is just a worse scenario, fill in the blank no. to get you going. From the photos, the decklid looked tweaked as well as the fact it's a spyder that typically don't hold up as well due to their inherit weakness over a coupe structure. Since the structure is aluminum, cut and heli-arc weld is the method and thus takes more time than pulling.

Some simple checks on measuring the frame is by measuring with tape measure at common diagonal points. I.E. measure from the LF suspension pickup point to the RR suspension pickup point and then from the RF to the LF, check the wheelbase side to side. Check door and panel gaps all the way around the car. A hit on one side can tranfer energy completely through the chassis can cause problems far from initial impact. Check upper to lower suspension pickup point dimensions and compare to the opposite side. If you can get a copy of frame dimensions even better, but you can do these simple check by varifying with discrepencies diagaonally and side to side as well as vertically. It can help pin point a twisted frame too. 360 owners manual has basic wheelbase and track dimensions.

Call Daniel at Ricambia.....one of our F-Chat sponsors. He can help you with current price as well as supplying parts if you plan on doing it yourself. Unfortunately FOwners site Isoview estimating with Ferrari UK does not cover newer Ferrari.

In my experinece any car that goes to auction is almost guaranteed to be salvage title. I too have seen stupid purchase prices at auctions do to inexperience and Ferrari buyer frenzie. The photos taken are pretty typical of how these auction houses work. They pretty much know they will get some sucker to run the bid up and pay too much. As a result, they typically don't care about divulging too much info and use the "as is" way out.

 

Sppedmore,
I was wondering about the photo of the rear bulkhead from inside. It looks messed up, but the photo is not that good. Are they trying to show astute lookers that there is a lot of frame bending/damage in that area? Cosmetically, it doesn't look like that much damage, so I wonder why it's salvage.

Dave

 

You guys keep saying "frame" this, and "frame" that.....

The 360 Spyder HAS NO FRAME!!!!! It is made up of various extrusions and sheet assemblies that insert into cast aluminum stress nodes and join the whole thing together!!! There was an excellent diagram in ???, magazine, when the system was first designed.......

FoH has one of four shops equipped to rebuild them and the technique is eyepopping, involving MIG TIG and about four different kinds of glue adhesive!!!! It's about cut and chop, not like the old chain pulling days at all.....

I have seen a 360 Spider there, from Dallas that appeared SPOTLESS from above, as the owner had 'flown it' off the road....about $110K to get that puppy tracking straight again.....it was new at the time, to pay off the effort.

Just so you go in 'eyes open', this would make a burned out 'vette look like a tire rotation! LOL!

 

I did something along the lines of what you are talking about, just not with an F-Car (and with much help from some friends & my brother).

The idea was to find a non-salvage (hardtop) car for CHEAP that could be driven on the street if needed, but mostly for some track time, as the tracks do not really like Verts running around on them.

We did the work ourselves. We did some drivetrain work, interior repairs, some body work, then gave it a paint job that looks good at 10 feet. We also added suspension upgrades, brake upgrades, a cage, 6 point harnesses etc. We ended up with about 50% more into the car than we would be able to sell it for, but still well below what it would have cost to buy a "nice one", and add the upgrades.

It was a fun project, and while I did not do as much work as some of my friends, I still had a fun time with it, and ended up with a fun car to drive. One that if it ended up in a wall at a track day it would not be the "end of the world", just "back to the beginning" of the project car.

A key part of the equation is the budget needed to get it to "Ready to go, Day#1 with my finished project".

If you care to share that figure with me/us, I think that the advice and ideas you hear on the board may shift towards helping you get that "perfect project car".

Best of luck with the idea of a project car

 

Makes you a 911 owner.

Welcome to the Ferrari world. It is pay to play over here.

 

Well, sorry! From that one pic I couldn't tell WHAT was hit, and it looked like someone had already done some exploratory surgery to get the insurance check!

Don't get me wrong the insurance gives up EASY as they have "heard" about Ferrari repair shops...not like the normal guys they can push around for a 75% discount!

The 360 was a MAJOR departure in structural engineering, was all I was trying to say..quite impressive technology by Alcoa and others.....

My steel tube frame 308GTB has been smashed to he11, T boned at 45MPH and spun, by a Surburban on a grass parking lot, and after all that didn't even REQUIRE frame work, so the older tube framed cars are quite tough, IMO. But you can stick 'em back together with conventional welding technology.....and of course the old pulling table with alignment jigs......

Then of course the drop top complicates things but actually the 360 was designed for that originally, so there ya go....it's just hard to see where the Average Joe, even with lots of talent would come out ahead......but heck if it's 'still straight', go with it!

Ferrari is one car that is pretty brutal on Salvage Title value, so a trip thru some southern States will be required......

 

308GTBs HEAVY???

Lose the spare and date skinny girls....next problem, please.........LOL!

 

Wow, I got bored after a year.

360s are expensive to mend. All future Ferraris are going the aluminum construction route and will be very expensive to put right.

Check into a 355, all versions are in your budget. You may be able to get an old challenge car as a track toy and still be able to squeeze a spider in the garage too!

 

Ok, here are a few questions to ask you, or you to ask yourself.

1> Does the car HAVE to be a F-Car?

2> Does the car HAVE to be street legal?

3> What is the budget to the nearest $10k to get to the point "Done and ready on Day #1"?

4> How much of a "Project" are you looking for?

With answers to at least the first three questions I am guessing that you will get all sorts of suggestions and ideas.

 

Digressing but with good intentions here:
Are you specifically looking for a track car? If so, how about a purpose built open wheel race car that you can run in SCCA and similar events?

 

Uhh, ok let's get back to basics here. It's NOT a monoquque it's a freak'n frame albeit Aluminum tubing and castings by Alcoa and Ferrari welded together if you like.....simple layman terms "frame"....it's even called that in the factory workshop manual in tables/Tav 101,102,103,104, and 105 as well as the Owner's manual.

Go look at it again. The rear is clearly a "framed structure". Ferrari used aluminum for weight savings, corrosion resistance, and torsional rigidity as well as it's deformation/crash characteristics.

If I may quote Ferrari, "The overall sturcture bodywork, is based on a space frame. The space frame structure is basically composed of three body components:
Extruded sections............yadiyadiya
Cast sections.................yadidayada
Reinforcement sheets and gussets.......yadeyaya

HOWEVER.........you may elaborate with your firsthand visual inspection of how detailed and technical it is repairing aluminum by cutting and TIG welding in new components with the proper tooling and jigs.

That my friend is what we have been trying to point out and why this is an expensive proposition if "frame" damage is present.