How to measure dwell | FerrariChat

How to measure dwell

Discussion in '308/328' started by samba-lee, Mar 24, 2007.

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  1. samba-lee

    samba-lee Formula Junior

    Aug 28, 2006
    677
    Manchester, UK
    Full Name:
    Lee Griffiths
    I'm having diffiulty measuring dwell on my single dizzy model. I get a weird fluctuating readying - I thought it was the meter but I have two meters and they both do the same thing. I set the meters to 8 cylinders and tried both terminals on the coil for the reading.

    Is there something special or obvious I'm missing on a V8 with two sets of points ?

    Lee

    '77 RHD GT4
     
  2. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
    5,379
    NWA
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    Paul
    Although you have a single distributor, each set of points operates only one banks ignition system. You still have two coils, and two ignition systems. Thus, you have "two" four cylinder engine ignition systems. Try setting your dwell meters to read a four cylinder ignition.

    Also, make sure of your connections. If you hook up your meter backwards it may read funny, though it shouldnt be fluctuating. You want to hook one lead to the - or negative side of the coil, and the other lead to chassis ground. Dont hook both leads to the two distributor terminals simultaneously, or it might read really funny. Each terminal is from each coils (-) terminal and thus, each set of points.
     
  3. samba-lee

    samba-lee Formula Junior

    Aug 28, 2006
    677
    Manchester, UK
    Full Name:
    Lee Griffiths
    Thanks I'll give it a go next time I run the car.

    Actually it makes my understanding of the system a lot better. I thought that one of the set of points fired both coils (hmm, surely that would be better for matching them) and the other set were for this strange retarding at idel concept. But yes not I see that the single dizzy setup doesn't have the gas pedal microswitch.

    If I can read the dwell ok then it'll make me a lot happier about having two sets of points and not worrying so much about converting to electronic ign. in a hurry.

    I've not had a good look inside the dizzy yet. Is points adjustment hit and miss or are they finely tunable with a screw (had an '88 Fiat X19 that you could adjust the points whilst the engine was running - superb idea!)

    Lee
     
  4. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
    5,379
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    Paul
    I didnt know Fiat ever had a points set you could adjust with a screw while running. Only ones I know that had that type were GM. Maybe someone adapted your distributor?

    I know a few have tried adjusting points with the distributor installed, but I think its virtually impossible and will only suffer to make you angry. Three bolts and you can have the unit out of the car. You can spin it with a drill and set dwell if you can mock up some rudimetary wiring to mimic the ignition at the points. Better would be if you know someone with a distributor machine.

    With both points in one distributor, the points really need to be phased as precisely to 90 degrees (45 distributor degrees) apart as possible, or bank to bank timing will be off. Lacking access to a machine, you really need to make it spin with something (a drill works), and attach a degree wheel and wire it up so you can put a strobe on it and read both dwell, as well as timing. You can probably get very close setting it with a test light and placed over a degree wheel, but I really think it needs to be set up dynamically for the best results. Once you get it set up right you shouldnt have to do it again for quite a while, so its worth spending the initial time trying to get it right.
     
  5. samba-lee

    samba-lee Formula Junior

    Aug 28, 2006
    677
    Manchester, UK
    Full Name:
    Lee Griffiths
    Hi Paul,

    Thanks. Is is really possible to synchronise the points given that they and the distributor cam may by worn unevenly ? I.e. you can set the dwell ok for each set of points, but not necessarily get the timing per bank exactly matched? or am I wrong as I've not had a look at the way you set them - I guess if you can move their angular position relative to each other then you can get the timing matched.

    Is the distributor drive on a spline or a dog ? just so I know what to expect if I pull it. (e.g. air cooled VW's are on a dog drive, so you can pull the dizzy just for fun without risking loosing timing badly)

    I guess there is some tolerance with the settings anyway - although that just means it'll still run but not optimally.

    It would be better if I could loose the points in favour of a breakerless system like the Pertronix but searching through the posts I can't seem to find any references to a definitive kit for the 308. I suppose the breakerless units just have to bolt in and fit, but it's all in the design of the add on rotor to fire the units ...


    Lee

    ps, yes the Fiat points were stock but I've never seen them before.
     
  6. samba-lee

    samba-lee Formula Junior

    Aug 28, 2006
    677
    Manchester, UK
    Full Name:
    Lee Griffiths
    I'm still unable to read the dwell angle. Using the -ve terminal on the coil and ground on the engine. Set on 4 cylinder dwell (but tried 8 as well). Still get a strange fluctuating reading on both my meters.

    I don't understand this because as you say it's just a 4-cylinder iginition system with it's own coil, points and condensor. I thought the rev counter lead might be affecting it, but of course that's only on one of the coils anyway.

    Maybe the amplifiers are affecting the reading. Apart from their name what are they for on this setup ? to boost the primary voltage ? if so maybe that's something to do with it.

    Puzzled ?

    Lee

    ps, the car is running great, but I just wanted to be able to check it for future reference, and it's probably sensible to check it when it's running right so I can verify my meter is reading ok - well that was the plan... I already bought a second multimeter (with dwell) as one original one I had wouldn't read correctly on a 6v car. I'm hoping I don't need to get yet another one...
     
  7. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
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    The points are fastened to a plate that is slotted, so you can change the angular position of the entire points assembly. You would set the the rear bank set first, and phase them to break with the leading edge of the rotor aligned with the red index mark on the distributor body (IIRC).

    Then set the front bank to break and simutaneosly have the correct dwell, 45 degrees (90 degrees crankshaft) after the rear bank.

    If I understand what your saying, no, the points cam is not perfect, there is some discrepency from wear that will throw the points dwell off from lobe to lobe. By checking all four quadrants you can adjust for it by compromise. Little more gap on one may give a little less on the other. Try to "balance" it. Same goes for the phasing between the two points sets. You will be lucky to get within a degree or two all the way round between the two sets, so again, compromise.

    All the distributors ive seen are spline drive, but from what I have heard here some of the early cars had some type of pin drive. I have never seen one or a pic of one, so I couldnt tell you anything. Maybe someone here can offer something.

    As far as your meter readings for dwell, I dont think I can offer much more. I know if my leads are reversed on my meter I get a goofy reading, so you may want to try reversing your leads? One lead should go to a points terminal, other to ground. I do know my first car was missing the main ground leads from the engine to the frame, and someone had ran two heavy grounds from the distributors back to the chassis at the coils. Without them I had no spark! There should be two webbed and uninsulated (unshielded) ground straps from the gearbox to the frame. They are unshielded to disipate static energy, so make sure you replace them with the proper cabling. There should be another one for your main battery ground terminal. Make sure your engine is correctly grounded. I guess if you cant get a good reading off your points, pull the distributor and look it over.
     

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