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Hybrid V-12's are coming

Discussion in 'FF/GTC4Lusso/F12/812S' started by F2003-GA, Dec 30, 2017.

  1. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    IMO It's a wrong move on Ferrari's part.Everyone is leaving the N/A scene
    and electric is driving the front wheels plus makes for better weight distribution
     
  2. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Rookie

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    A slightly rear biased weight distribution is preferable and that's what all supercars and race car manufacturers implement.
     
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  3. crinoid

    crinoid F1 Veteran
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    Dude, rear wheel drive V12 is NEVER a wrong move.
     
  4. Bundy

    Bundy Formula 3

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    Not for me, either. But I’m open to the rumored mid-engined V12 that may be released soon. A modern-day 512 BBi sounds good to me!

    IMHO, save the Hybrid V12’s for the top-of-the-line LaF-esque supercars. The 812 is my favorite car street car ever & has more than enough power.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  5. j09333

    j09333 Formula Junior
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    812 is scheduled until the end of 2021 not the end of 2022?
    Which one is it?


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  6. Eilig

    Eilig Formula 3

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    Good question... there have been different answers floating around on that one...
     
  7. montpellier

    montpellier Formula Junior

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    Well they claim only 60% of the range will be hybrid by 2022 when the new emissions regulations have hit. They are either going to pay the fines, or more likely have agreed as a smaller manufacturer a target with the EU for the whole range. 12 month ago they ruled out turbocharging the V12 and said it would need hybrid, now they say no hybrid too. I am sure the situation is complex for them, and of course with only 60 % as hybrid, that means say 4000 vehicles as non hybrid to play with , meaning turbo or NA. I am still not ruling out mentally in my mind a turbo V12 as it was the first step the V8 took before hybrid , though there is no way Ferrari will leave Lambo with the only NA V12 on the market would they ? ( though they left the NA V10 when they went V8 turbo) So maybe we will get another cycle of the NA V12 version yet as it reaches that sunset. The reliable Fer9000 poster did suggest we all look after our NA V8 and V12 if we have them .
     
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  8. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Rookie
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    Really starting to like this guy Michael Leiters and will research him a bit. He says: "We will fight for the V-12, to maintain it like this today, because it is core Ferrari". Sounds like me and a lot of others around here. "To get the full potential of a hybrid, we need to downsize the engine. With a V-12, naturally aspirated car, we don’t have that downsizing" - that's another quote right off FChat. The future of ICE- Hybrid is pure electric through a progression of smaller and smaller ice engines and that's not where the brand should be at. Real enthusiasts want big, loud, screaming V12 engines for our Ferraris.

    Forget the batteries. Use the full product line averaging for the greenie requirements and keep that V12 nasty. I don't know why the turn around but this is definitely a 180. As the article alludes, more questions than answers. But if they can do the compliance at the multi-vehicle or even multi-brand level than this is great news. There is no power or rpm limit Ferrari cannot hit on a big V12. Battery driven electric motors are redundant to big V12 engines. Maybe they realized there was not enough power advantage for halo over flagship when both using basically the same setup. Maybe just go big on the V12 and real light and strong on the chassis with classy aero.
     
  9. deltona

    deltona Formula 3

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    If this is true and V12 remains NA one thing for sure is that we will pay for the exclusivity. I have had it hinted that the 812 spider will be considerably more expensive that the current 812 coupe, way more than from 488 to 488 spider.

    Also, as the FUV is almost certainly to be V8 powered and will replace the Lusso, this could mean the Lusso could be the last 4 seat V12?
     
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  10. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper F1 World Champ
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    Keeping the NA V12 will give hope to those of us who like V12 2+2's. Ferrari already said they want to return to the "elegant 2+2" so I'm betting the Lusso replacement will have a V12 too.

    Don't forget that Enzo drove a V12 2+2 as his personal car, so it is basic to the Ferrari DNA.

    The FUV will certainly be a turbo V8, perhaps with some electric elements. They want to sell a lot of them, so around the price of a Portofino, I'm guessing.
     
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  11. MDEL

    MDEL Formula 3
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    In this world of fundamentalist emissions legislations where we live now the Ferrari v12’s meet all Euro 6 standards. That way no bureaucrat will be able to persecute Ferrari as far as it continuous to make the necessary technical updates to the V12 engines in order that they meet the future even tighter green standards. When the day comes that Ferrari’s V12 engines are no longer able to comply with the tighter green legislation that will come, they’ll still have the same demand but they will become an even more exclusive and expensive product just for the very few lucky ones.
     
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  12. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

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    But the V12 already does not even come close to meeting regulation of normal manufacturers at 95g/km of CO2, (812=366g/km) and Ferrari small manufacturer status has an agreement at 290 until 2021 and then is 277 (see page 58 here: http://corporate.ferrari.com/sites/ferrari15ipo/files/ferrari_nv_annual_report_12.31.2018.pdf), but, they are sure to lose their small status after the Purosangue release and then if that occurs, larger fines will result, that is exactly why 812 production is currently being prioritized for EU countries (because of year 2021 fines)
     
  13. MDEL

    MDEL Formula 3
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    As you explained the non-compliance by manufacturers with Euro 6 emissions and future tighter legislation will result in very big fines. However there are always ways to fiddle that using the existing legislation. Automakers are allowed to join a “pool” which is a group of brands that gets counted as a single entity. This is tricky for Aston Martin, Maclaren and the very small automakers but could be a possibility for Ferrari. Despite Ferrari being no more part of the Fiat Chrysler Automobiles the biggest share holders is the same. FCA with 29,5% of the shares owned by Exor NV which is the the Agnelli's family holding. Exor NV is also the biggest share holder of Ferrari spa with 23,5 % of the shares. I believe they could make if they want that “pool” by joining Ferrari emissions with the ones of Fiat Chrysler Automobiles and then in principle any incoming legislation won’t be a problem.
     
  14. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

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    That's an interesting take on this, I believe a tenuous connection at best, I have my doubts that will be an acceptable strategy, after all, if it was, I think it would have already been implemented and this race to hybrid Ferraris not taken on such critical importance in the 5 year plan rolled out during last year's capital market days conference...
     
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  15. red passion

    red passion Karting

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    Maybe the key to that turnaround is a new holistic view on the powertrain as a system of different factors. One could argue that any ICE can be green in theory. It just depends on how green the fuel you fill it up with is. So it’s basically not different to a BEV. It can be just as green as the electricity used to drive them.

    Koenigsegg made an interesting move with the new Jesko being able to run on green E85 fuel and simultaneously increasing the power.
     
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  16. NeilF8888

    NeilF8888 Formula Junior

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    Naturally aspirated V12's are a rarity in the market today and will be very sought after when they are no longer available (without electric). Hold onto your V12's especially the last of the kind. IMHO the limited production Icona's and Halo cars with V12's will have stratospheric pricing and move the "ordinary" V12 used market north.
     
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  17. deltona

    deltona Formula 3

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    I wouldn't be too sure they are referring to a V12 'elegant 2+2'. They may well be referring to a V8T Portofino based 2+2. That, alongside the FUV with V8T/Hybrid means no more V12 4-seaters. We'll know soon enough....
     
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  18. BarryK

    BarryK Formula Junior

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    #318 BarryK, Mar 15, 2019 at 12:07 PM
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019 at 12:15 PM

    Not to disagree with you, but we have already seen the last non-hybrid, unassisted V12 halo car - the Enzo, and it doesn't trade at a premium to the hybrid laferrari.

    I think the eye popping performance of the upcoming hybrids will attract the next generation of buyers. There may be nostalgia for the pure V12s but not sure if they translate to a long term premium.

    Meanwhile, bring on the V12 Tributo!
     
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  19. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper F1 World Champ
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    That was specifically not what he was referring to. It was a main line car above the entry level Portofino and upcoming FUV, on the new modular platform.
     
  20. MDEL

    MDEL Formula 3
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    I agree with you and I'm already following that advice
     
  21. deltona

    deltona Formula 3

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    OK, but did they state V12?
     
  22. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper F1 World Champ
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    No they did not, but nobody would buy a car with a Portofino engine for nearly twice the price, and a hybrid touring car wouldn't be popular either. V12 makes the most sense.
     
  23. NeilF8888

    NeilF8888 Formula Junior

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    My thought was that the end of the V12 except in Hyper and Icona models would raise current and past "ordinary" V12 cars. I think only a limited number of large displacement V12's will be produced because of the green rules and they will be assigned to where the most profit is made, the Hyper and Icona models. Adding the weight of batteries and electric motors will hurt handling and though they may add to straight line performance I don't think they'll fool the regulators by being able to drive 25 or 30 miles solely on batteries. Ferrari will be much more scrutinized once it passes the 10,000 vehicle threshold with the Purosange, which will constrain V12 production with or without the electric hybrid power.

    I am not promoting myself as a emission regulations expert but judging from the current green groundswell, I don't think large displacement V12 motors will be commonplace in the near future (2022 and beyond), making the current V12's collectible.
     
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  24. Ferrari 360 CS

    Ferrari 360 CS F1 Veteran
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    I agree with this. Frankly I find this whole CO2 thing a lot of nonsense. Lets have a look at how environmentally friendly these batteries and the manufacture thereof is, never mind disposal?

    I don't suddenly see Ferrari buyers turning around and saying they want full electric cars which go "whoosh" so there will always be a market for V12's, much like there will always be a market for American V8's.

    Ultimately what needs to happen is a total ban on diesel, ban that before a few thousand V12's are banned. Few million diesels driven every day are far more harmful than a few thousand V12's driven 5000 miles a year at most.

    I really hope Ferrari keep the NA motor in some form or other. Maybe the answer is smaller V12's and lighter weight cars...
     
  25. MDEL

    MDEL Formula 3
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    Ferrari will be much more scrutinized once it passes the 10,000 vehicle threshold with the Purosange, which will constrain V12 production with or without the electric hybrid power.
    [/QUOTE]

    With 5361 cars shipped in 2005 and around 9.000 in 2018 the evolution of Ferrari shipments during this period has increased on average 4% per year. If shipments contineou at the same rate the 10.000 cars barrier will be reached in 2021. According to Ferrari the Purosangue release will happen in 2022, most certainly in March at Geneva, and as usually production of the model will start the same year. The expected jump of Ferrari shipments because of the Purosangue extra demand could start in 2022 and continue in 2023. That could be happening already after the 10.000 cars year shipment mark was achieved in 2021. According to Ferrari 2017 annual report the Maranello’s factory production output could be increased further with the introduction of a second shift on car assembly lines compared to the single shift currently operated. That’s probably what will happen if the Purosangue demand follows the expectation.
     
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