Hybrid V-12's are coming | Page 4 | FerrariChat

Hybrid V-12's are coming

Discussion in 'FF/Lusso' started by F2003-GA, Dec 30, 2017.

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  1. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 World Champ
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    They won't make a copy of the LF technology on a production car. But it was done because Ferrari, and I think the others, realized they had to release supercars that point to the future and the future is using electric - in some form. For Ferrari, the engine note is so important, and I also think its important to experience the mechanical feelings and interaction of the engine (especially the V12). I could imagine an electric McLaren. I could never imagine an electric Ferrari. It's possible my imagination is limited, but that is just how I see it. Anyway, I think Ferrari knows what they are doing and if they continue to think creatively and look for innovative solutions then we should see future cars that are even more interesting and exciting.
     
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  2. Traveller

    Traveller F1 Veteran

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    Myself and others keep on saying that is 5 year old technology and no way would they just repeat it on a series car. They are not idiots and know it has its serious limitations.
     
  3. red passion

    red passion Formula Junior

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    I could not have said it better.
     
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  4. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    Exactly
     
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  5. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    The weakest "performance" aspect of a ICE car is when it is moving from a dead stop position. It cannot develop torque as quickly as e-cars and starting from zero is also incredibly inefficient, combustion-wise.

    Once you get the car going, the ICE is fine and will hit a higher top speed than e-cars because their batteries cannot sustain super high speeds. I think a properly-spec'd hybrid setup would be ideal for future Fcars. You don't need big electric motors, big batteries, because Ferrari engines are so potent once they get going.

    There was one time I "raced" a Tesla Model S with my slightly modded Cali30 on a moderate grade (8 to 15%) uphill course and he was completely glued to my tail for about the first 8 seconds but after that he fell right off while my car was just hitting its stride in 4th gear. I think he was either just toying with me, or more likely, his batteries were not properly prepped, a bit flat or were starting to get a bit warm. In any case, he probably liked my car way more than his, having to view and listen to mine from behind for about 10 seconds.

    The point is, I think ICEs are better than electric motors in many ways and if my car had a couple of small electric motors just to let it bolt out of the blocks, I would have beaten the Model S handily. If performance is all that's needed, so claims SM, then a short-burst/quick-recharge hybrid e-motor setup is all you need.
     
  6. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
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    #81 Solid State, Jan 8, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
    Don't kid yourselves that Ferrari is adding the massively complex and expensive hybrid technology just to increase performance when they can surely get 900HP out of the existing production engine with no cost or weight penalty. Or are you saying that that poor little 70% new 6.5L engine that they are currently introducing in the 812s is at or beyond its reliable performance maximum? Didn't think so because I would just pull up the same story lines about the 599GTO, the Enzo, the F12, the F12 TDF, etc.

    Sure they can do a hybrid, I just don't prefer it from an engineering, cost, complexity and reliability point of view. That and hybrids eventually lead to the complete loss of the ICE let alone the NA V12 we are all trying to protect in this very thread. The last 60 months have not seen a leap in battery technology to not be a fools folly in the next 48 months IMHO. Larger displacement, higher RPM, higher lift longer duration cams, lighter rotating mass, tighter tolerance, advanced materials, more efficient cooling, better engine management ECMs are just a few ways. Delicious. Then theres the endothermic-chemical route (read up on it) to create and dump hydrogen down the intake and then a whole host of other new technologies. This is all without electric motors and giant battery packs that will die just like that nasty stock battery in the very Ferarri(s) in your garage right now. I don't want to drive a Tesla with a Ferrari shield on it guys. Think about it.
     
  7. maha

    maha F1 Rookie

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  8. F140C

    F140C Formula 3

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    @maha Thanks for finding and sharing those documents, very interesting.
     
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  9. MDEL

    MDEL F1 Rookie
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    Hybrid is a relatively wide concept and sometimes a confusing one because there are at least six different types of hybrid motorization. The one type used in LaFerrari and which will be used in future models is the Mild Hybrid system. For the purpose of clarification of the differences below you'l find a brief explanation of each system

    Mild Hybrid
    A mild hybrid uses its electric motor to provide a teeny-weeny bit of assistance to the engine. The mild hybrid system cannot provide pure electric propulsion. The so-called Kinetic Energy Recovery System (or KERS) found in Formula 1 cars is related to the mild hybrid cars. A mild hybrid is similar to a parallel hybrid, yet it offers limited hybrid features. The LaFerrari, the Porsche 918 Spyder and the McLaren P1 are all examples of Mild Hybrids.

    Parallel Hybrid
    Honda brought into the limelight the parallel hybrid system. In the first-generation Honda Insight, the IMA can’t power the car on electricity alone. What it can do, though, is use the electric motor to help the engine work its magic. Regarding advantages, parallel hybrid vehicles pride themselves on less energy transfer between the engine and the wheels. But the thing is, parallel hybrids rely more on the internal combustion engine than the electric motor.

    Series-Parallel Hybrid
    Often referred to as power-split hybrid, this setup uses two sources of propulsion: an electric motor and an engine. The difference between it and a parallel hybrid is that series-parallel hybrid employs a planetary gear set, thus sharing the power from the engine and electric motor. Depending on the car, the power split can be 100 per cent for the ICE, 100 percent for the electric motor, or any imaginable ratio in-between. The best-known application of the series-parallel hybrid system is the Toyota Prius. As the name implies, the series-parallel hybrid setup merges the pros and cons of parallel and series hybrids. Nevertheless, it is significantly more efficient than either a parallel or series hybrid

    Series Hybrid
    The internal combustion engine has one role to fulfill behaving as an on-board generator. The biggest advantage of a series hybrid is simplicity because the electric motor/s motive the car, not the ICE. The Lohner-Porsche and the BMW i3 Rex are series hybrids.

    Plug-In Hybrid
    This is the type of hybrid vehicle you can plug in to fill up with electricity. Needless to say this, but the main disadvantage of a PHEV over a hybrid is the additional weight of the larger battery. From the Toyota Prius Prime to the Ford Fusion Energi and even the Chrysler Pacifica Plug-In Hybrid minivan, PHEVs are pretty varied.

    Micro Hybrid
    Micro hybrid systems include the Mazda i-Eloop in the Mazda6, Ford Auto Start-Stop (as found in the 2017 Ford F-150 with the 3.5-liter EcoBoost V6), and Kia Idle Stop & Go. In broader terms, micro hybrid equals a vehicle that employs some sort of start-stop system.
     
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  10. italiafan

    italiafan F1 World Champ
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    Like I said before...I'll be keeping my F12.
    I'll let the fools chase 1500 hp engines and 0-62mph times below 2 seconds.
    Guess I am slowly morphing into a "vintage guy."
     
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  11. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

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    We are not talking about electric cars, we are talking about hybrids. It's the best of both worlds as you have instant torque at low RPM and also the power of the ICE at higher speeds. Not that a supercar needs more torque as any performance combustion engine is capable of spinning the wheels into oblivion even from a standstill. Nice to have the instant throttle response at tick over though.
     
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  12. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

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    No need for the usual doom saying. The electric assistance will help the ICE survive, not the other way round. By the way, the current 6.3 litre V12 is maxed out in the FXX-K, at 860 CV and that car doesn't have to worry about emissions and noise regulations. They had to increase the displacement to 6.5 litres in order to make 800 reliable CV in the 812. The LF makes 800 from the 6.3 but that is at it's highest state of tune for a road application and it also has the electric motor to fill in the torque at low RPM. You can argue about complexity and cost of maintenance, but performance wise these hybrids are great even though the technology is still immature.
     
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  13. italiafan

    italiafan F1 World Champ
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    "Not that a supercar needs more torque..."

    Case closed.
     
  14. italiafan

    italiafan F1 World Champ
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    800 hp is more than sufficient...now turn the brilliant engineers loose on making the car lighter, more thrilling handling, supermodel design...
     
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  15. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

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    Yes, does sound very similar to the story today, and hence my sense that at some point, if they could do better with fewer cylinders, they will. Just the nature of progress. People use to complain about the move from carbs to injection, and most of them are have now been reunited with their beloved carburetors in a museum int he sky. Same will happen with manual gearboxes, V12 etc. The new generation does not give a monkey as long as it looks flash and has performance numbers for bragging rights.
     
  16. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

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    Oh I get it. The V12 was so good, they thought why not scrap it and do a brand new V10 instead, with all the costs and risks, just because....give me a break.
     
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  17. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    Exactly
     
  18. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    Street driving 600hp is plenty - But that don't sell exotic's today - Manufacturers are competing with each other hence
    the outputs keep growing.It's not about more torque it's about using electric power to provide the perfect torque curve
     
  19. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

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    No I won't give you one.
    The reason for the passing to the V10 was fuel economy (smaller tanks and less weight) and packaging benefits. It's a compromise between absolute power and other attributes. With the capacity being reduced from 3.5 to 3.0 litres, such a move was deemed appropriate. By the way, the 412's major problem was reliability, not speed.
     
  20. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 World Champ
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    Sorry to parse words, but I guess it really depends on what we define "better" to be. I think they could have done better (economy) with fewer cylinders for some time now. I can't argue the merits in terms of racing, but in terms of marketing a street car, I think there is something to be said about maintaining a link to a spectacular heritage, the mechanical smoothness of the V12 and the multifaceted and delicious sound, the free revving nature you get with smaller pistons, all conspiring to capture the imagination. I don't think this is purely generational. For how many generations have they been making V12s? Many. And during that time they've offered NA V8s, turbocharged V8s and yet the 12 cylinder has persisted (though they did have a flat 12 period so its not always a V). I do agree the newer generation will have its own unique attributes, but I also think the market place will respect someone who knows what they stand for. No analogy is perfect, but to look to watches, for a long time digital watches have been more accurate, durable, easier to package, and far less expensive; and yet, marques like Patek remain highly desirable, even with their "old school" mechanical movements. I see Ferrari as a race team and an engine builder. So I see the V12 in a Ferrari as similar to Patek's mechanical movement.

    As I see it, the move to hybrid may not be the most purist of moves, but it likely keeps the V12 in the game for a solid number of years. Things we know are it won't harm the response nor the sound. The weight may be an issue but that is a theoretical concern borne of the information we have today. Perhaps improvements in materials and technology will go a long way to mitigating that worry. I think we are living in a new golden age of automobiles and Ferrari is at the top of their game.

    Let's wait and see. I'm excited about what they might do.
     
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  21. maha

    maha F1 Rookie

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  22. Traveller

    Traveller F1 Veteran

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    I'm liking all these applications, best as I can understand them, as they appear novel ways to harness electricity when used with ICE. What you would expect from Ferrari.

    Thanks for posting.
     
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  23. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    #98 AlfistaPortoghese, Jan 9, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
    A purely personal opinion, but no. I of course concede it's a great, fast car. And I absolutely respect the contrary opinion, that has to be said is the rule.

    Again, an entirely personal opinion and taste, not a crusade to convince anyone: Electrification doesn't belong in a car, any car, in any shape, guise, fashion or form. Not just a philosophical approach: it reflects my convictions and defines my profile as a client/buyer.

    A naturally aspirated V12 sucking on good old fossile fuel has no replacement, no substitute. It can't be superseeded. We can of course try other ways to get close to the same emotions. We just have to call it something else. Calling it the same isn't acceptable because it isn't the same. No matter how great lenghts people may go (Marchionne included) to fight it, the more I hear it is the same, the more I know it isn't.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
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  24. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

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    Well, anyone is entitled to an opinion but last time I checked the V12 in the LF is the best Ferrari has ever produced and has lost none of it's legendary N/A attributes. In fact it gained more power with the addition of the electric motor both thanks to the extra power of the electric element itself but also due the fact that the engine could be tuned more aggressively as it didn't have to worry much about low RPM driveability. If they can deal with weight increase and maintenance, there will be no real cons.
     
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  25. Solid State

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    Realzeus - I get that you are a hybrid supporter by looking at the performance numbers. However, you are respectfully missing much of my point. I think you actually believe that Ferrari can't get the necessary performance out of an ICE engine any longer. You are wrong as this has been said for every Ferrari engine since they hit 660HP on production engines. Similar arguments failed regarding having to use forced induction to get the performance and compete with the other manufacturers.

    The 812s is another prime example. It is no doubt faster than the F12 TDF in average hands and with no electrics whatsoever. It will destroy every other production V12 Ferrari in existence and its not even a "mild" hybrid to get an initial kick - especially with that giant useless mass of heavy batteries that you'll have to lug around for the rest of the ride. Adding a motor, clutches, battery packs, yards of thick copper harnesses and lots of high voltage power supplies and additional electronics and SW to control the mess just isn't worth that initial kick you crave. An ICE engine is beautiful in its simplicity and reliability as well as its looks. Nothing is maxed out when you design and build the entire engine in-house. Pick a number and they will hit it. Doesn't have to be with the F140 you know. Best.
     
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