Hybrid V-12's are coming

Discussion in 'FF/GTC4Lusso/F12/812S' started by F2003-GA, Dec 30, 2017.

  1. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie
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    #151 4th_gear, Jan 12, 2018 at 2:57 PM
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018 at 3:07 PM
    It looks like, whether intentionally or unintentionally, you have effectively doctored my original post and excluded a portion of my post which would have countered your question and doubt. So to clarify to you and others, here are salient portions of my earlier posts that referred to mechanical improvements in engine components, they are obviously not the same as the F12's:

    "...When you combine KERS (which enables) lightening the engine components (pistons, rods, cranks...etc), ...

    If you read this Ferrari webpage describing the LaF HY-KERS, you'll also see this paragraph...

    ...Improvements in mechanical efficiency involved a number of components, most importantly the crankshaft which has been lightened and incorporates new, more aerodynamically efficient counter webs to reduce pumping losses...The crankshaft design also reduces masses around the rotation axis which cut overall mass by around 19 per cent..."

    If you wish to verify this, then here's the link to my message which you misquoted and the actual text on the Ferrari website...

     
  2. italiafan

    italiafan F1 Veteran

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    You are truly pathetic.
    I quoted your post #118.
    It is there for all to see in its entirety.
    You again parse words, quote other people to try and doggedly hold on to your point all the while never having logged any time behind the wheel of an F12.
    And..yes..try..to insult by saying I can't debate "objectively."
    You have proven my point child.
    Your opinion on the F12 is indeed worthless.
     
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  3. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie
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    It's very unfortunate, that your criticism of me is demonstrating the opposite; ironically displaying what is wrong with the way you respond to debate, by personally-attacking instead of discussing the actual issues. Stick to the issues and ideas and by all means attack the ideas, attack the way people behave but do not attack people personally. You need to know the difference between these ideas in order to conduct a civilized discourse.

    You don't know who I am so you should be saying instead... "your POINTS are pathetic" and not "you are pathetic".

    You also call me "a child", again a personal attack. I suggest you say "your points are childish" instead next time and then proceed to explain WHY you think so. When you decide to criticize, you should explain and reinforce your argument.

    As for my opinions being pointless, I think I've just proven why they are not.
     
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  4. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
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    #154 dm_n_stuff, Jan 12, 2018 at 8:04 PM
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018 at 8:45 AM
    I'm not sure how many of you guys need a temp or permanent thread ban. Some, for sure.

    Any chance you could collectively dial it back, knock off the personal attacks and attempt some form of civility?

    How about giving it a shot. I'll check back in from time to time, and the next guy who talks smack, or personally insults another member is gonna take a break. How long to be determined by the level of invective, or the amount of churlish behavior that goes on between now and my next peek?

    So, no more personal crap, ok?

    Let's give that a try.

    Dave
     
  5. Solid State

    Solid State Formula 3
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    #155 Solid State, Jan 12, 2018 at 8:37 PM
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018 at 8:43 PM
    4th Gear: Michael - If you have done the amount of research that I have on the F12 and the LaF, you would know that the F12 Berlinetta and the LaF share the same crank, pistons, piston liners, etc. (as I stated and you take issue with). Identical. KERS added no advantage to these parts in direct contradiction to both of your posts. Here is the proof below - please note Item 1 below CRANKSHAFT. You can buy one now and it will fit them all. Notice the statement from the parts supplier that the same crank part number matches the F12 Berlinetta, La Ferrari, La Ferrari Aperta. The same for pistons and piston liners the last time I looked. I found that you can learn a lot about actually doing the research yourself.

    If you want a real treat, compare what fits in the whole car between the 599GTB and the 599GTO. I spent many hours on it at the time and it ended that debate for me as well. Best.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  6. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie
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    #156 4th_gear, Jan 12, 2018 at 11:56 PM
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018 at 12:02 AM
    Solid State, that's brilliant. Bravo, well done!

    Yes, definitely if identical replacement parts are shared between the older V12s and LaF then they must incorporate the same designs. And yes, you are correct, I did not actually check all the parts, nor am I privy to Ferrari design secrets. My comments were along general lines with regard to engine design strategies except for where I quoted directly from Ferrari's own specific claims on the LaF.

    OTOH, the engines do have different maximum speeds so unless Ferrari simply reduced the safety margins for the LaF engine, it would have to incorporate different components and/or design. From the parts diagrams you will notice some timing system components, notably the exhaust cam shafts are different on the LaF from those on other Fcars, including the F12. That could potentially be designed to facilitate greater exhaust capacity at higher engine revs.

    So it would seem Ferrari may not have been totally honest about the engine embellishments unique to the LaF, at least with regard to the crankshaft.

    Thank you very much for sharing this neat way to discern how Ferrari went about their engine development! ;)
     
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  8. Solid State

    Solid State Formula 3
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    Hey no problem Michael! The LaF's most noticeable difference from the F12 IMO are the heads and the continuously variable intake tracts from the old F1 technology. Ferrari are the masters. They also always seem to leave more on the table when they make a major change in both the engines and the suspension. :)
     
  9. LVP488

    LVP488 Formula Junior

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    Not trying to put some additional fury in this thread :) although I might have been the one guilty for initially reacting to the low end torque remarks with the questionning of a lack of torque...
    So a few more comments:
    - I have to admit that compromised low end torque is not the same as lack of low end torque ("compromised" and "lack of" not being the same words)
    - claiming that an engine needs to have its low end torque improved seems however to imply there is some lack
    - I am not a mechanical engineer, so cannot really argue whether a flat plane crank is actually detrimental to the low end torque; whether it is true or not in theory (and I have no particular reason to doubt it), I can only talk about my feelings and experience, which are that while the Ferrari NA V8 have limited low end torque (compared with engines of similar capacity and power), it is not the case for the V12
    - lastly, an electric engine will always improve massively the low-end torque compared to an ICE, no matter the type of crankshaft of the latter (that's why a Tesla is so good at standing starts - on 0-20 mph it might be the case it's faster than any car with an ICE, no matter how powerful...)
     
  10. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Rookie

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    Is there a N/A V8 car with similar capacity and power as a Ferrari? ;)
     
  11. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie
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    Just 20 years or so ago people thought 200 bhp was more than adequate for a med-size sporty BMW. Today, it would be woefully lacking, embarrassing in fact. It's not that an inline 200 bhp 5er is awfully slow. It's just that the rest of the traffic (of much cheaper cars) is much faster and if BMW ownership were meant to provide a bit of extra edge for an enthusiast driver, then BMW needs to do better than 200 bhp for a 5er.

    No technology stands still, especially if it is to succeed in an "open market" (i.e. COMPETITION). Flatplane crankshafts are better suited for race cars and high speed driving, the true stuff of Ferraris (like, take your car to the track). Driving in urban traffic is patently not Ferrari and imposes very different demands on an engine. Unfortunately the current and future markets for Fcar sales are in high traffic, high density urban locations with ever-increasing populations. Ferrari has to make the driving experience pleasurable for everyone in spite of crappy driving conditions. It needs to succeed in new markets to remain financially successful so it can continue to make the cars we love.

    Since we don't want to lose the screaming V8s and V12s, and most buyers live in urban areas, the most logical and best technical solution is the hybrid model presented by LaF.
     
  12. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie
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    Yeah, that seems to have been so, and a transition to hybrid designs will certainly open things up even more. The F1 technology you point out came over from the same "table" where other F1 tech like HY-KERS are still awaiting the right (i.e. palatable) opportunity to make the jump to road cars. Successful F1 tech is in a way, a long-running car commercial, "testing", and "selling" future car tech ideas to people who love fast cars. :D
     
  13. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie
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  15. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie
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    LOL. Toto's are not very good in the flush department... lack of torque. :p
     
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  16. maha

    maha Formula Junior

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    Sergio Marchionne-The first electric supercar will be a Ferrari



    If someone makes an electric supercar, Ferrari will be the first: we will do it, it's a must." Sergio Marchionne returns to speak from the Detroit Motor Show . And he does it starting from the Red. To those who asked him if the electric Ferrari will be in the industrial plan, the CEO of the FCA group replied: "Could". Beside a possibility, a confirmation arrives: "The Suv Ferrari will arrive by 2020". The president of Cavallino, who in recent days had talked about the electric and the increase in their weight("by 2025", said the ad, "half of the cars in the world will be electrified"), has also expressed itself on US emission standards. "The Trump administration seems to have a different approach to cars than previous management," Marchionne said. "I expect a relaxation of the standards, I think there is a realignment of the sector with the government that we have not seen for a while".........................................

    https://www.quattroruote.it/news/industria-finanza/2018/01/16/sergio_marchionne_la_prima_supercar_elettrica_sara_una_ferrari.html
     
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  17. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 Veteran
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    Hilarious I attached the wrong link :D:D:D
     
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  18. f12luke

    f12luke Karting

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    Cough, cough, LaFerrari is a hybrid V12 and has been around since mid 2013.
     
  19. SVCalifornia

    SVCalifornia Formula 3

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    S’Ok!

    We won’t make a stink about it!

    SV
     
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  20. BarryK

    BarryK Formula Junior

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  21. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 Veteran
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    We mean the kind us mere mortals can buy ;)
     
  22. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 Veteran
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  23. red passion

    red passion Karting

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    I think hybrid is superior.
     
  24. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 Veteran
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    Better experience for sure - But electric is coming like thunder :D
     
  25. red passion

    red passion Karting

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    Yes it comes like thunder, but I think at higher speeds and revs an ICE is still better. Maybe this will change in future. We will see. Yeah, hybrid definitely is the better experience. :)
     
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