Does anyone know where to add fluid to the hydaulic pump for the convertible top. It should be easy but I can not see filler hole. Thanks
Finally,I got the rite procedure of bleeding the top hydraulic system from the "official" workshop manual. I think I have to share this to everyone,especially for 355 spider owners... A-Solinoid valve B-Compensation valve 1-Pressure bleed screw 2-Main piston 3-Secondary piston 4-compensation valve fastening 5-Main piston bleed 6-electrical pump 7-compensation curcuit opening screw FILLING AND BLEEDING PROCEDURE 1)Disconnect the right and left primary cylinders from the hood frame at the fork ends at the two pivot bolts(#2) 2)Check the oil level in the tank with the primary cylinders fully retracted.Top up if necessary,without exceeding the "Max" level. 3)Using the emergency push buttons put the primary cylinders through 5 complete cycles to bleed the pump curcuit.Whlist the cylinders are moving the pump noise should be a constant pitch.Any changes in pitch indicates air in the pump curcuit. 4)End the cycles with the cylinders fully retracted.Then check the oil level again! 5)Open the manual valve located on the pump body,opposite the ECU.(#1) 6)Hold the left primary cylinder with the fork against the bulkhead panel with the piston fully compressed.The bleed nipple should be at the top! 7)Invert the right primary cylinder so that the fork is at the top. 8)Fit the bleed tube to the nipple of the left cylinder and put the lower end in a suitable to contain the displaces fluid. 9)Open the bleed plug 10)Pull out the piston of the right cylindeer by hand WITH the bleed nipple open on the left cylinder.This will purge any air from the cylinders themselves and the high pressure pipes connecting them. 11)Close the bleed nipple(6Nm)to prevent any air being drawn back into system,the top up the reservoir to restore the level. 12)Close the manual valve(#1) 13)Open the manual valve located at the bottom of the compensation valve(#7) 14)Using the emergency push button,operated the pump to fully extend the piston of the left primary cylinder.Both pistons should now be fully extended. 15)Close the manual valve located at the bottom of the compensation valve(#7) 16)Using the emergency push button,put the primary cylinders through 5 complete cycles. 17)At the end of this stage the pistons of both cylinders should be synchronized and there should be no change of tone.Any changes of tones indicates air in the system and the entire procedure must be repeated from step 4 until all the air has been purged. 18)At this stage cylinders must be fully retracted and the oil level in the reserveoir must be between "MIN - MAX". DO NOT OVERFILL!! 19)Reconnect both primary cylinders the hood mechanism. 20)Test opening and closing. Attached Images . Image Unavailable, Please Login
Thanks so much I have a lot of experience with hydraulics in marine applications but was unsure of this application. Your info is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks again.!!!!
After trying a couple of other methods posted on the web, I got nowhere! Your method was the only one I saw that mentioned inverting the passenger side piston..This made all the difference in the world. Thank you! Jeff (Hero Motorsports, Van Nuys CA.)
I followed the bleeding procedure above and still have two problems when I try to get the top up: 1) When the main RAM on the passenger side retracts it misses the fork to lift the right side of the top up. Pressure placed on the fork moves it back in place so the passenger RAM can engage the fork. I looked to see if there were any adjustments but could not see any. I also did not see any bent frame members. The top on the passengers side is a little lower that the drivers side. Pushing the fork in so it will meet the Main RAM will lift the top up about one half of an inch. 2) the small RAMS do not engage at all to get the top to move forward even after the passenger fork is pushed back and engaged on the main RAM. Any help would really be appreciated. thanks everyone. Image Unavailable, Please Login
I have seen this on a couple of cars now (mine included). The conclusion I have come to is that either the rams are leaking internally and do not close quickly or completely enough. Or the pump assembly is worn and is not creating adequate pressure to pull the forks into position quickly or completely enough. I have not found any adjustment option that allows for the correction of the issue so my assumption is that the issue is internal to the hydraulic operation. Anyone able to find where these might be adjusted?? Are the small rams triggered to operate after the main rams are fully retracted? As a group, we will need address the replacement options for the 355 rams that control the top....as I understand it they are NLA or extremely expensive.
Well, I got most of the problems resolved. I again followed the bleeding procedure from FloridaF355. I made sure to do each step exactly as written. This resulted in the secondary RAMS getting totally filled and no movement was possible indicating they both had filled with hydraulic fluid. Thank you FloridaF355 for the precise procedure. One very important thing I found out is that the secondary RAMS only engage when using the console switch. They will NOT move with the emergency switch. The secondary RAM movement resulted in the top actually extending out an additional 1/4 of an inch. The fabric was snug and very tight. I used the three side bolts of the frame base to move back the roof frame to allow for the roof to properly lock down on the windshield frame. The only problem I have not been able to resolve is the passenger side fork being further out from the pivot bolt resulting in the top not being able to fully close by itself. I guess that is the next challenge! The roof frame does not appear bent in any way. Any ideas would be appreciated. I'll post detail pictures when this is all over.
My hood seems to go up too far at the back! What determines the the height, is it the micro switch, or is it programmed?
Ya!! It is a Ferrari now. WHat fun would it be if you didn't have something like this to tinker with. Mine still works as designed, fingers crossed.
Although I have seen Michael's mechanical fix, this top looks like it was designed by my famous uncle, Dr. Ruben Goldberg, PhD, the designer - - on a day when he was really "messed up".
Hi! How do you bleed the SECONDARY cylinders??!! I have done the bleed procedure twice and my primary cylinders work perfectly, but my secondary cyilenders never work and they move easliy in and out like they are empty (no fluid). Thanks for the help!!
Ari, just be aware that the secondary cylinders have no pressure if the roof is not being moved (and also when the roof is going down). Pressure is only applied when the roof is going up and the primary actuators have reached their "up" (fully retracted) limits. The pressure switching is done by the "F1" valve behind the driver's head (Left Hand Drive cars) when the S2 and S4 internal microswitches in the primary actuators have been activated. S2 and S4 are activated when the primary actuator pistons are fully retracted. Here's the hydraulic diagram: Roo fHydraulic Diagram If you have a problem pressurising the secondary pistons, you may have a problem with the "F1" valve solenoid or one of your primary piston internal switches. Were the pistons working before the bleed? The F1 valve and solenoid is shown in in DCup's image (Inset "A") Image Unavailable, Please Login There should be 12 volts at the solenoid when the roof is being closed (and the primary actuators are fully retracted). I can't remember if there is a quick disconnect plug at the solenoid (for checking voltage)
Qavion, Thank you!! That response was extremely helpful! And prompt! Got it, so, for the secondary rams, it's only a temporary pressure assist, almost like a squirt of pressure, to push the top of the roof to unfold and close on the windshield, but otherwise they are depressurized. Correct? Well well... I can't answer your question about whether the secondary rams were working before the bleed because I don't remember using the top for more than two years and I only used it once before then when i first got the car! But... look what I found! (See pictures attached). It looks like for the passenger side secondary cylinder, the ram is bent!! The driver side secondary ram is fine however (perfectly straight), it's just the passenger side that has been damaged. I do remember that when I tried to use the top when I first got the car, the passenger side was drooping down (I think passenger side main ram was weak or had air). Does this need to be replaced? Is it bad enough to cause problems? And do you have a better idea why this might have happened? Best to you. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Not sure. There is an internal microswitch on the left hand secondary actuator, but not on the right. The microswitch in the left hand actuator deactivates the pump motor at full extension (fully closed). On the surface, your bent actuator doesn't look too bad. Is it jamming at full retraction? It shouldn't because there is only hand pressure pushing back on the ram (but full hydraulic pressure in extension). If it's not jamming or leaking, it's probably ok, but why it bent, I don't know... unless someone was jumping up and down on the roof Basically correct. The squirt is controlled by the F1 valve and the fully extended microswitch in the left hand secondary actuator. If the roof controller doesn't see the fully extended microswitch activate, the pump will be commanded to run as long as you have your finger on the roof close switch. If the switch is permanently showing fully extended, then your pump motor may not provide enough pressure to complete roof closure. Can you compare the left and right secondary actuator rams to see if the resistance to hand pressure is the same?
Excellent information. Thanks again! I have to keep my fingers crossed that nothing is wrong with my left hand secondary actuator microswitch because the left hand secondary cylinder is the only thing I haven't sent in to be rebuilt! ...maybe I should bite the bullet and just have that rebuilt as well... OK, let's assume, for the sake of argument, that I have had all 4 cylinders/rams as well as the solenoid rebuilt. They are rebuilt and tested 100% by a totally reliable rebuild company, but, I still have the same problem with my secondary rams not activating. In that case, what then???
I haven't checked, but there must be an electrical connector on the left hand secondary cylinder. Just put an ohmmeter on the two pins (or sockets) and see if you have an open circuit with the cylinder in all positions except fully extended. Note that I'm going by the old Ferrari wiring diagrams. The switch may be closed circuit in all positions except fully extended. Just make sure it changes state at full extension. There should be two microswitches in each main actuator also which change state, but these will be harder to check unless the system is depressurised. The electrical connectors on these will have 3 pins, so you need to know which pin does what. Go by wire colour on the wiring harness going to the connector. Do you have my wiring diagram? I don't know where you are located. USA? Will you be sending the cylinders to these guys? https://www.tophydraulics.com/82-ferrari-355-f355-spider I would do as much electrical diagnostic work before sending the cylinders away. There could be other electrical/mechanical faults. e.g. with a fault with your F1 solenoid valve. https://www.tophydraulics.com/ferrari-355-f355-spider/331-rebuild-service-for-ferrari-solenoid-valve-block-168888.html When the main cylinders reach full extension, there should be power sent to the solenoid. I would try to put a voltmeter on the solenoid electrical connector (shown in the picture above) and see if 12 (?) volts appears. If you have a 12 volt power supply (or spare battery), apply the power to the solenoid plug and see if you can hear the valve change position. Check the resistance of the valve coil to make sure it's not open circuit. I assume the valve has a spring loaded plunger like the F1 gearbox actuators. If you don't hear any noises when you apply power, I would take pressure off the system and carefully remove the solenoid valve* and check the plunger for movement. It's possible that the plunger has gummed up with lack of use. *to avoid damage to o-rings Sorry, all this stuff is labour-intensive.
Before you start doing voltage and resistance checks on the valve, you might be able to hear/feel the F1 solenoid valve clicking. It should click just as the main hydraulic actuators reach full retraction (roof closing). If you decide to clean the valve, you might be able to soak the solenoid plunger in some kind of solvent overnight. That's what most seem to do for these kinds of actuators. The professionals probably have ultrasonic cleaners. If there are o-rings, of course make sure they are resistant to the kind of solvent you are using or remove them before soaking.
