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Discussion in '348/355' started by No Doubt, May 16, 2007.
You are the Man!
So in the event that purchase is not in the very near future and we have to wait that long what would you need for a donor car?
So does the 360 still use fuel/air data tables, or by that point had Bosch/Ferrari gone to fuel/air algorythms instead?
Actually the purchase is nigh at hand.
The old adage of "when you have no money there is your car, and when you
are flush w/ cash you cannot find one to save your life" is at hand.
And I have lots of $$$, but no car.
Tried to find an OBD-II F355, but the majority I found were just not solid
enough for me - so I changed sights to an F360.
Would prefer an F360 6spd, but I can live w/ an F1 I guess.
Yes, and torque tables - since it's a torque based/electronic throttle
I knew it! Man, if my wife sees this she's going to wonder when the 360 will pull into the driveway!
Torque-based electronic throttle control.
...that's the best selling point for the 360 that I've heard yet.
Lets be thankful it wasn't an 8048.
Is the full listing floating around anywhere ? I'd love to take a look how they did the 3D LUT
Jim is there any hope in sight for OBD-II 355's?
There's not a full listing floating around. I downloaded a free 80515 decompiler, bought a Batronix EPROM reader/programmer, yanked my chips out of my 348's ecus (didn't know that they were identical until after I read them), scanned them in, decompiled them, and found the fuel/ignition lookup tables by hand.
The 3D and 2D fuel and ignition tables are standard Bosche fare from the late 1980's/early-1990's. Same format for headers/length/width as what the Porsche guys posted for the 911, just different locations and different method of building the overall fuel curves.
OK, finally an update!
The owner of the bad aftermarket chip sent me it's twin from his other ecu (348's have 2 air fuel ecus, each has a chip).
It turns out that the chips aren't twins any longer. Yes Dorothy, EPROM chips can degrade over time (probably due to their ability to be reprogrammed via UV light and electricity).
In the listing of the differences in the chips below, you can see that the good chip keeps the stock Ferrari 348 Spider OEM programming code from Hex 4004 through 7F0F. In contrast, the bad chip butchers the Motronic 2.7 programming code in that address range.
So to sum up this thread: it wasn't a bad aftermarket company...just a single chip failure (there will be an entirely new thread on what happens and how to test for a bad chip on your ecu later, too).
Adr |Bad Chip| Good Chip
004004 | 80 | E0
004604 | A1 | AF
00460D | 83 | F3
004804 | 80 | 98
004A04 | 00 | 75
004E04 | 00 | 08
004E0C | 80 | 93
004F0C | 00 | 75
004F0D | 80 | A0
004F0F | 80 | D2
00640C | 40 | C5
006C0C | 40 | 54
006E0C | 02 | 0F
006F0C | 02 | 0A
006F0E | 00 | 44
006F0F | 00 | 44
007C8F | 01 | 3B
007F0F | 00 | FF
Is this degrade problem seen in the stock oem chip as well? Should we be doing some kind of maintenance like burning a new chip from the old data every year? And yes is there a test short of pulling your eprom out and doing a hex dump?
Yes and yes. You own your copy of the OEM code that is on each chip in each ecu, so make a copy.
These EPROMS *do* sometimes go bad (they are user erasable and programmable, after all, so being in an extreme automobile environment for 15+ years could easily cause 1 out of every 1000 chips to go bad).
In my opinion, you should remove one chip (they are twins so you just need to scan in one chip of the two), scan it in, and save that binary file. Replace the chip and carry on.
Testing. If a chip goes bad, you will either get absolutely no CEL illumination on the dash from that ecu (e.g. during the startup test), or else you will get the 1313 CEL code.
At that time you would want to burn a new chip from your scanned/saved image, install that chip into the "bad" ecu and go from there.
Just as a followup, there are probably several 348 Brothers who have been told by a Dealership or independent shop to buy two entirely new ECUs when the only real problem was in one removable chip in one ECU.
Before buying new ECUs, you should *always* swap out the chip in each ECU to see if that fixes the ECU.
This is a multi-thousand Dollar test that won't take 45 minutes of your time.
For the less geeky of us, can you please advise what it takes to do the scan and save. What equipment do I need? Where's the chip in question located in the ECU? How is it removed so that it is not damaged? How do we store the data?
The next thing I'm going to need is a chip upgrade optimized for my mods, but it sure would help me sleep at night knowing I had the OEM safely stored and recoverable. This also might be the most convenient way to return to smog compliant.
Great way to return to smog compliant...but simply putting your stock chips back will do most of that for you.
What you want is a back up chip, or the image of, the chip that you want protected.
Most any modern EPROM scanner/burner will read our chips. I use the BATRONIX EPROM programmer (www.batronix.com) because it is cheap and easy to use (software comes with it).
Yank out your M2.7 chip (here's a pictorial tutorial to so do: http://www.club348.com/technical/Tech/ECUnchipHow2/Howtoaccessyour348ECU.htm) and insert that chip into your EPROM scanner.
Scan in the chip (2 software clicks). Now save that image as a dot bin file (".bin").
If your chip ever fries, just burn a new one (2 mouse clicks) from your stored image.
It is POSSIBLE that the chips used are not to automotive spec.
It is very hard and rather expensive to get automotive spec EPROMs anymore.
The other key is that the access speed is correct as well.
Automotive spec is specifically the temperature tolerance of the EPROM.
The aftermarket firm in question used IC's with an F1 temp rating.
ND, time to resurrect this thread. I have started poking around with the M2.5 chips and it appears that the structure of the data on the chip is different to that of the M2.7.
Is there any info out there on the 2.5?
Just what I've done. I can give you the pointer indexes for the air/fuel tables and ignition tables...the index map to the tables is at a different memory location in 2.5 than on 2.7 (and different again for 355's running M2.7).
If you are using the Motronic 911 Editor, then I have the M2.5 SPC file that will get you started and a good ways in to the chip (the Primary Offset *is* correct and the Rev Limit RPM memory address appears to be correct, for instance, but I haven't verified the fuel and ignition addresses therein).
See attached (but rename "348m25.txt" to "348m25.spc"):
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Are you planning any trips to cali in the next year? I'm thinking Plugzit and I would love to just buy all the required stuff and have you give us a programing lesson. It is easy to you but we are just old hillbillies that still have paper address books!
I'm overdue for a Cali trip. I'll definitely be out there soon.
You don't need much of a programming lesson, though. You'll need:
1. Most any modern EPROM scanner/burner to read our chips. I use the BATRONIX EPROM programmer (www.batronix.com) because it is cheap and easy to use (software comes with it).
2. Some chips from the same site above (actually, you can shop around and find them for a little less $$).
3. www.8052.com (if you want to modify the programming instead of just the fuel/air and ignition data)
4. the Motronic 911 editor http://www.atlllc.com/atlantis.php?page=Motronic%20Editor
5. the M2.7 SPC file (attached). Just rename "F348m27.txt" to "F348m27.SPC" and then run the Motronic 911 Editor on your .bin file that you scanned in with your Batronix EPROM reader from item #1 above. NOTE: I haven't verified each fuel and ignition address in that SPC file yet (but it looks good so far).
Anyway, that Motronic 911 Editor will use the SPC file to read your Ferrari 348 chip's .bin file and display the fuel maps and ignition timing maps in 3D graphical form (you've seen me post those graphs here on Fchat).
That Editor lets you change one data number at a time and then regraphs what your new fuel or ignition map will look like.
So you might change a "4A" to a "4F" for more fuel at one particular RPM and load, for example. Not too tough. The editor shows it to you in graphical as well as data form...you just change the data point values by hand.
Anyway, with the above and a dyno graph of your existing Air/fuel ratio over the full WOT rpm band, you can add or reduce fuel where you need to in order to get your desired air/fuel ratio.
And you can bump up your ignition timing as much as you dare (good way to blow an engine, though).
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Thanks ND - a lot.
I'd be interested in any SoCal get together to cover this type of thing. Specifically, I have an interest in retrofitting factory-like EFI to earlier engines.
Funny that you should mention that. I've been contemplating buying some 308 GT/4's for my drift team and making that very mod to them.
Would solve the carb-surge problem under high lateral G conditions.
The thing that really interests me is the potential for a cheap(ish) factory-looking EFI conversion for the CIS injected engines. There is free hp and mileage improvements waiting to escape, not to mention the ability to easily pass smog tests here in Ca.
Anyone with one of these cars wanna play?
Yup. Solves the carb surge (important for drifting!). Enables easy emissions passing. Enables different spark dwell, ignition advance, and fuel/air curves. READ: lots more hp.