I don't get 993s | Page 2 | FerrariChat

I don't get 993s

Discussion in 'Porsche' started by Texas Forever, Feb 14, 2024.

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  1. peterp

    peterp F1 Veteran

    Aug 31, 2002
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    I honestly agree. $115k on a modded 993 with partial leather seems like all the money in the world. I used to love the looks of the 993, but it hasn't aged that well to my eye. Can't argue with the market though -- they've always commanded strong dollars.
     
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  2. peterp

    peterp F1 Veteran

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    #27 peterp, Feb 19, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2024
    Depending on what you are looking for, though, you might get two different answers to those two different tests.

    The 6-speed/2wd/coupe 996.1 is actually 119 lbs lighter than the 993, and 130 lbs lighter than the 964. In fact, the 996.1 weighs only 35 lbs more than a 87-89' G50 3.2 Carrera. With 300 hp (and power steering) erasing even more weight, the 996 feels most like the late 60's/early 70's 911's to me. I don't miss any of my air-cooled 911's.

    Options are everything though -- I didn't like our first 996.1 (Carrera 4 Tip) that I bought for my wife many years ago (good car, just wasn't fun to drive), the 6-speed/2wd/coupe 996.1 we have now is among the most rewarding cars I've driven or owned.
     
  3. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 10, 2007
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    And one has many catastrophic failure modes and the other does not.
     
  4. 375+

    375+ F1 World Champ
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    Dec 28, 2005
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    996 headlights are hideous.
     
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  5. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 26, 2005
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    A 993 is a great drive, and the build quality is something I appreciate more every year. The performance isn’t up to the later 911s, but with classic/vintage it never is.

    It definitely does depend on what appeals to you. I wouldn’t try to talk anyone into buying an air-cooled 911. They’re of another time, but special. The nice part is that, unlike a Lotus Esprit, for example, you can travel back in time without your mechanic in the passenger seat. The 993 gave me some of that feeling, the 964 even more. For me, that’s part of the value.

    The 996 is very capable, and the prices aren’t unreasonable, but it is a different beast.



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  6. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    You no see the headlights when you drive.:D
     
  7. zygomatic

    zygomatic F1 Rookie
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  8. Island Time

    Island Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 18, 2004
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    I’ve posted my 993 thoughts before.

    It’s a subcompact luxury car. No one really makes subcompact luxury cars. So, if that’s what you’re looking for, Porsche has you covered.
     
  9. LARRYH

    LARRYH F1 Veteran
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    Jun 3, 2011
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    I have never cared for the 993s .. I prefer the 964 then the 997 .. The 993 is a great car as is the 996 but I do not care for the looks of either .. //
     
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  10. Chupacabra

    Chupacabra F1 Rookie
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    996 turbos are some of Porsches best and if you think they’re ugly, I suggest an eye exam.

    I’ve already issued my gushing praise for my 996TT enough here, and I have also said that I honestly do not believe a 993 is must-have for a casual enthusiast or someone who simply wants a Porsche. Base 996 or base/S 997 is more than enough for those folks.

    That said, being rather more than a Porsche neophyte and having owned and driven a 993 for the better part of ten years, there are things about them that are just so charming that it is hard to be without. I’ve said my next Porsche will be a 993 and most likely will not come at the expense of the turbo, and I mean that…the 996 honestly is not so far removed that it feels like a drastically different car. That’s an eye call and not a seat of the pants call.

    Still, as an artist and an enthusiast, my inclinations tend to dwell with the subtleties, and that’s where the lack of a 993 is hurting. That and I do believe it is one of the most well-executed mass production automotive designs of all time. It’s hard to turn down a car that still borrows heavily from the past and has modern and reliable attributes that make it perfectly useable without too much computer nonsense.

    While all of this is important, what I do not get is why people are lining up to pay exorbitant amounts for what I consider to be driver at best quality cars. I was bidding on a 188k mile example on BAT recently, and while I’d prefer a well kept car with fewer miles, I had a good feeling about this one and I do drive my cars, so whatever. I would pay $60k for something like that, figuring in the cost of a top end (had not been done) and some other things that would likely be necessary. Someone decided to pay $85k with fees, which I think is simply nuts. There are better cars on auto trader with a quarter the mileage for not much more at all. Add to that the fact that a hand written, no-name, not so great compression test was supplied and I can’t see why on earth anyone would pay that much.

    So…while I “get” and love them dearly, I think they are perhaps the most overvalued thing around next to the 964 and I refuse to pay a crazy ass price for one.
     
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  11. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I think you captured the essence of it here. If you love the craftsmanship and mechanical directness of a classic sports car, the 993 and 964 are the last and best. I admire the E-Type and 246, but would consider neither especially modern nor reliable. Yes, there are “better” 911s, but they lost the bank vault precision you get in a 993/964. Chris Harris said after a test drive of Jensen Button’s 964 Turbo 3.6 that the cars feel like they’re built to last, and it’s this that is missing in almost any cars built after the ‘80s. They are almost ridiculously overbuilt.

    Worth current market levels? Probably not, but what else is there?



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  12. Shark01

    Shark01 F1 Veteran

    Jun 25, 2005
    5,794
    I like the softened rounded front end design of the 993 (the last oil cooled model) the most of the pre-996 models, and the drive is very mechanical (vintage) feeling. Agree the 996 Turbo is a good design, and really the basis of the 997 Turbo design.
     
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  13. Chupacabra

    Chupacabra F1 Rookie
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    Probably a difficult thing for many to understand, but once you know, you know and it’s very difficult to see things objectively after having that experience to savor regularly. Clearly, I do my best to see through that! But you’re exactly right, we’re dealing with an intoxicating mix of blatantly obvious differences and nearly complete intangibles here. The late air cooled cocktail is high test and dependency forming for those who are so attuned.

    The problem - and this is something I know I’ve harped on before - is that even those who probably don’t “get it” have decided they have to get it and the feeding frenzy is out of control. Like the 246…I’m not sure we’re ever coming back to earth here.
     
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  14. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    What’s interesting is that I’ve now heard two Southern California Porsche dealership executives echo the observation that the later air-cooled 911s may have been succeeded but they were never really replaced. That is, the 992 generation is one they would sell you gladly, but one manager at Porsche Beverly Hills described the ‘90s air-cooled as the most engaging of the last 60 years. These are guys in suits at the dealership — not gurus with beards modifying cars in a warehouse — all cool enthusiasts, but hearing it from the dealership is quite striking.

    You can’t turn back the clock, but in hindsight it was a decade in which Porsche had mastered American emissions/safety compliance while keeping the original formula intact. (If there’s a Ferrari equivalent, it may be the 328, which finally lost the 308’s battering ram US bumpers and got reliable ignition and injection technology.)

    The classic 911 and 246 are both art and visceral experience. I don’t see anything remotely resembling them in new car showrooms, and apparently the market agrees. They weren’t rare, but time, attrition, larger population and of course the internet have affected supply and demand.

    These aren’t cheap to own and run, but given the cars’ charm and recent news about cars providing insurance companies and manufacturers data about drivers’ behaviors my interest in classic Porsche has only increased… I can’t go back to my 20-something self, but I can go for an awesome drive.



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  15. cairns

    cairns Formula Junior

    Nov 13, 2003
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    Still miss my 993. The "ting" when you shut the door, that oily smell, the flat six burble, the bulletproof reliability, the way the pedals worked. That car fit me like a glove and I drove the piss out of it. Until you drive and own one you won't understand.
     
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  16. Chupacabra

    Chupacabra F1 Rookie
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    I’ve always called the 328 the 993 of Ferraris! The direct contemporary…ehhh, not so much even though I loved my very sorted 348. As you point out, that’s not to say a 964 or 993 will not hurt your feelings via a reseal or top end, etc…but fits and spurts are to be expected with any “old” car I suppose and it’s still better than a lot of Ferrari maintenance costs!

    That’s very interesting indeed, your dealer experience. I get a similar vibe here from the sales staff, but certainly not from the GM, etc. Of course, their GM is a friend and was once the manager of one of my bands (!) and he is genuinely excited about working with Porsches and 100% believes in the product, no question. That’s just his personality.

    I still haven’t had the heart to tell him I hated the T they were so kind to let me take out…
     
  17. cairns

    cairns Formula Junior

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    #42 cairns, May 1, 2024
    Last edited: May 1, 2024
    My next to first car was an X1/9. Yes that gorgeous baby Ferrari. Bright yellow. Not even sure how many horsepower it had but God it was a hoot to drive. I think I was 18. It smelled kind of oily too. I would bet a 328/348 is a hoot and a half. An X1/9 on super steroids.

    Which at the time was made of pure unobtainium.
     
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  18. Oz-ATL

    Oz-ATL Formula Junior
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  19. Chupacabra

    Chupacabra F1 Rookie
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    A friend has a yellow X1/9, he LOVES it.

    348s are raucous fun. You just have to be prepared for what they may throw at you, and for God’s sake don’t assume they are in any way luxurious (not sure why anyone would want that, but I’ve heard more than a few complaints). The one I had belonged to Ingenere here on Fchat, and he had put challenge springs, etc on and FOA (at Ferrari of Scottsdale) converted it to a Serie Speciale before the trim had debuted. He also installed challenge gearing. It was RAW and real. I once told Zygomatic “it’s like walking Cerberus on a leash” :)
     
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  20. cairns

    cairns Formula Junior

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    Always wanted to own a 3 series Ferrari and think they're stunning to this day. Had a chance to buy two of them (a 328 and 348) and passed. But still I wonder....wonderful steering, punch in the tush, the sightlines and the smell....
     
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  21. Chupacabra

    Chupacabra F1 Rookie
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    “Well weathered leather/hot metal and oil…”
     
  22. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    My X1/9 was silver. IIRC about 75 bhp… in 1981. Fortunately it was much faster with the headlights down.


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  23. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I think the reverence for these cars is very much due to the Porsche Classic business model and the restoration competition. Porsche Beverly Hills restored and updated a 964, and Porsche Palm Springs did a really nice SC. Reportedly the SC was a $200K project — I know the lead tech — and it was displayed in the showroom. It is heartening to me, as one who loves classic sports cars, to see Porsche celebrating cars like the G-body, 964 and 993.

    What amazes me is that when I take my 964 to the dealer for service, they offer me a loaner. Obviously they do this if you have a late model Porsche, but mine is 31 years old and I bought it from an independent dealer across the country. Not sure this is standard practice, but they do recognize the air-cooled cars as significant.


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  24. Durwin@TAG

    Durwin@TAG Rookie
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  25. mrar

    mrar Karting

    Jul 23, 2014
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    australia
    I've been in a few 993 tt cars, too new for me. Tried to buy a 993,but was stitched up by the local porsche dealer (sold to another, blamed his other sales guy).
    Old ones (930's) are the go.
    Here is my 79 when I picked up from the trucking company years ago. We have an intimate connection, as I do with my older one.

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