I don't know whether to laugh or cry

It's just some bloke who doesn't have a clue about Italian refinement! He just raped the car!

 

I just threw up a little in my mouth.

 

said the actress to the bishop

 

That person should have there Balls pounded Flat....

 

Guess i best come clean. In October 2006 added a proper dual-element, fully adjustable rear wing to the 308 while also playing with ride height/weight distribution. The rear wing is flat black anodized aluminum, same as the rear engine vents so it all matches (for those who care about visuals). The wings are made from hollowed aluminum while the end plates are carbon fiber. Both wings are adjustable in tandem for angle while the smaller top wing element is separately adjustable for further tuning.

As for the effect, the wing allowed me to move more weight forward so at slower speeds i have a touch of oversteer (which i like). At higher speeds, depending on how i set wing angles of course, there is proper weight on the rear as desired.

As for the rear deck lid, the 308 has cross members and i have taken advantage of this as the wing platform mounting bolts are in such a way that they are directly over/between these supporting cross members. While i can not guarantee that the rear deck lid will never bend in a bit, it is much less likely due to taking advantage of the built-in cross members on the lid itself.

i admit, after adding the wing the visuals were a hate/love/hate/love thing. Sure, have had various Fcar guys make fun of it, but have also received compliments.


The downfall is that it added 15 lbs of static weight very high up the CG. After track tuning it became a 100% love thing as have shaved some very good time off my usual lap times at NHIS. Have a feeling at high speed circuits like WGI i would take off the upper element or perhaps remove the entire wing assembly. At LRP would probably set her for small to medium down force. NHIS it is such a low speed, high twisties course that you want to have oversteer and excellent cornering ability. Alas, decided to sorta give up on the 308 for 2007 in favor of a proper track car that has adjustable front AND rear wings (and even separate high and low down force wing assemblies).

But yeah, can understand how it looks blingy and ricer, but at the track it saves me lap time and now have the ability to balance the car in a way that was not previous achievable... and can't argue the joys of faster laps

This was one of the last aero/car tweaks before the planned adding of HP/TQ... before that plan got pushed back in favor of a dedicated track car.
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Steve, didn't I read that you made quite a few changes at the same time you added the wing? Any idea what contributed what to the lap time improvement?

 

Other changes was lightweight fly and clutch, which i am sure helped as well as redoing the corner weighing. Redoing the corner weight was done as the wing added rear weight PLUS at initial setting of balance i guessestimated how much weight the added aero effect would add. Basically i just lowered the rear of the car, as the wing added weight plus this lowering did streamline the entire car's angle of attack to be more cutting through the air (the front end is still lower than the rear, but it is now not as large a difference as before).

Can feel the wing and effects when making changes to it and at this point like what is being felt. See no reason to remove the wing, but did plan on more development and testing/tuning in 2007 of the 308... which has taken a back seat as a proper track weapon has entered my stable and is now taking front and center stage.


Was really curious how various changes to the wing would affect my LRP lap times in the 308, and LRP is one of my fave tracks and really have it down in wet, damp, and dry conditions. Also note this is a proper wing with proper spacing between the elements (per Carroll Smith's book) and end plates. It IS NOT just rubbish cheap bling that is usually set at some wacky angle you see on ricers cars. As for measurement of the angle(s) of attack, i use a digital level said to be accurate to 1/10 of a degree (see http://www.speedpartz.com/smarttool.htm ).


On a similar note, had a Honda Del Sol VTEC years ago and played with the stock wing (taking it on and off, adding washers as spacers, etc). Seems Honda did air tunnel or some development as without rear wing she was good but not locked down as she was WITH wing and no spacers at 100mph+. You could feel the car begin to hunker down at 90+ and at 100mph the car actually got quieter and felt more lock in to the road.

Hope this helps, but at this point the 308 is back burner so very little data may be added during 2007. The wing is a love/hate/love/hate thing visually, and draws that much more attention to the car (which i really do not need quite frankly). Yes we could argue the added drag and weight of the wing... but i guess don't knock it til you try it. It only takes 8 holes in your engine cover and a digital level to try it for yourself to decide. If anyone wants hints to mounting one i will gladly help.

In 2006 have seen a few 308's seem to lose their rear end grip during turns at speed. This did happen to me in late 2005 at the top of NHIS after turn 3 and corrected the situation of snap oversteer. Have NO clue as to what others have for weight balance ratio, alignment, etc and if other factors were at play (perhaps driver error) when they had problems, yet the wing can help to keep the rear of the car better glued to the track when set accordingly. If i hated the results from wing testing would have yanked it off, yet so far have no reason to remove it. After a revisit of the wing if i hate it she will be removed and i have no set 100% love or hate for it. It simply 'is.'


FYI: if i set the angle of attack steep enough, the wing can be felt at a low 60 mph. This wing is said to be optimized for road racing with average speed of below 120 mph.

AS-105552 V-SPEC Type 2 (Black)

http://www.aprperformance.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=47&Itemid=44

 

This is another example of a disgusting rape of one of the most exciting beauties in Ferrari's history! You have no idea about style, an embarressment for our beloved brand! Why don't you buy a racecar if you really wanna race?
Has it occured to you that GTS means actually: Gran Turismo Spyder?

 

Back off, bub. If you don't like the wing, say you don't like the wing. Don't make it a personal attack. Steven has very narrowly-defined usage needs, and the changes he has made has improved the car for those needs.

 

Steven,
I must say the wing on your car looks a lot more agressive than the Mondial one and is a functional tool as well as you stated in your post.
The Mondial wing is clearely a Bling Thing. For some time I've been looking at the Mondials for my first Fcar, especcially the 3.2 model takes the cake for me, seeing this makes my eyes water.
Best
Jurgen

 

Steve,

At least grind the bolts off flush with the nylocks, so you don't poke the back of your head!

*poke*

 

I was sure this thread was going to be about this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1986-Ferrari-328-GTS_W0QQitemZ230065515929QQihZ013QQcategoryZ6212QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

Steven,

With a 308 with close to stock HP, I am curious if you can say that the wing itself is responsible for better lap times. The lightweight flywheel and most importantly the corner balancing I would think are far more important in getting the most out of what is in reality a heavy, underpowered car for a track. And in an autocross situation, I doubt the car would be fast enough to use the wing. If I missed something and you're running over 300 HP, OR have torn out the interior etc and have a 2200 pound car, then nevermind!

Ken

 

Knew i was gonna catch heck....

Umm... i do have a racecar (see pic at bottom of this post). Appreciate your feelings, but the 308 here is LEAGUES BETTER performance than what left the factory for track use. As for style and taste, you are judging me 100% by what has been changed to the 308? Do you know me in full? Have you seen my wardrobe, my wife, how and where we travel. Are you truly familiar with my/wife's lifestyle? Have you seen my home? If you feel i embarrass the Ferrari name, you may want to ask the track guys who have been crying because i have basically retired the 308. They love the 308 here... and her developement and they KNOW i drive the living shot out of the car on the track.

Also, it was the most modern Fcar finances permitted AND had the ability to be tweaked without major intervention (computers, etc). If you want i will remove the wing if you will lend me a 430GT, F40 or the like and you will pay to maintain them as they WILL be heavily tracked. Perhaps your financial means allows you to procure a higher level of Ferrari for track use, and if so that is wonderful. For me, the 308 had many attributes i felt were key in a price range that was maintainable. Am sure you track your Ferrari 328 many times a year, right?

BTW: have been to Belgium and met the ?President? of the Ferrari Owners Club. He maintains the store across from the statue of the little boy pissing. He loves driving his car at the local track. We chatted for quite some time. A very nice man with a deep passion, just as i have a deep passion... just as you have a deep passion.

Thanks my friend. As i have said, have zero problem removing the wing and am not married to the wing idea. It is still 'under development.' It does seem to really make a love/hate opinion and virtually no middleground (unlike the bake, ignition, raceseat, belts, AC, radiator, etc mods).

Jurgen, agree the Mondial seems less purpose-built. The wing i chose is built/designed for tack use. It has a very large span and proper end plates. She really can generate a lot of downforce.

Excellent suggestion but they really do not protrude much PLUS the wing is still 'experimental' for now. So leaving it as is makes it easier to remove as those protruding threads have a hex inset for loosening/tightening (which you can not see in the pic). So the 'extra' threading does serve a purpose to allow for hex insert adjustment.

Have never AutoX as she is mainly a road course track car where top speeds reach 105 at NHIS, 135+ at WGI, and 125+ at LRP. Agree the lighter fly/clutch and rebalancing had something to do as well with lap time drops. The car is 2920 lbs wet with me in her and makes 180HP/165TQ to rear wheels. The rear wing was a precursor to then getting the Supercharger system installed, that would up the weight about 50 lbs but also make the car 350HP/290TQ or so.

Am saying it helped as after playing with balancing AND wing adjust i found a nice balance that was not achievable by weight adjust alone. Agree, it IS a mistake to make multiple changes at the same time and try to evaluate, but i had no choice


THE SKINNY: OCTOBER 2006
It was crunch time and the last really big/long track session for the year. Has Nick's oil tray mod and got in the light flywheel and clutch. Add to that i wanted to play with aero. This meant i HAD TO install clutch.fly and oil pan mod BEFORE the track time, as they take many hours to install and do not just pop on and off.

Track day came, which was 240 actual minutes of ON TARMAC time (whereas club days are maybe 90 minutes). i could have had 360+ minutes of on track time total, but am only human and needed a break after 30 minutes of driving... and she needed more gas of course and we had a lunch break. Burned through about 25 gallons of gas in those 4 hours of track time.

Eh hem, anywho...

Again, agree it was a mistake per se to make multiple changes and evaluate. i CAN feel the wing and changes. My final tune made the car oversteer at speeds below 45 mph while at near double that she seems to have a touch of understeer. A problem i have had in general was a bit too much (to me)understeer at all speeds and she was not pushing well once we reached 125mph.

i felt that the elevated rear was causing too much rear weight and overall aero drag. By lowering the rear i took weight off the rear and made the overall aero hole smaller, BUT then i 'lost' some of the desired weight to keep the rear end down.

Could go on with my (probably erroneous on some accounts) logic, but am doing the best i can given the tools at hand, book learning, practical application, track time, and finances. Consider it all a real world school of learning. Educated guesses, trial and error, and data acquisition... Am all ears and fully open to suggestions. A lot of guys have been helping me over the years and am very grateful for guys like Nick Forza, Eric/Martin at Girodisc, and the guys here on Fchat and the track guys for suggestions.

In the end, the car below is my now my main concern/toy/experiment. Oh, and this car has (you guessed it) front and rear wings. Adjustable elements naturally and have both adjustable high downforce and another complete set of adjustable low downforce wings. Also have latest Pennon aero bits...

My apologies if you hate the wing on the 308, but it can easily be removed. At this time i have no plans to remove it until solid data tells me i am going in the wrong direction. To date data tells me i am on the right path.
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Glad I didn't step into this one

 

Steven my dear friend, You already know my opinion of the rear wing. While some may like it and others not so much. Ultimately, It is up to you to decide if you truly like having it on there for the track days.

I still want to drive it at NHIS with the wing now, to see if it is that much of an improvement. Now that you have the formula car, you need someone to follow you around the track as a camera car. (I here by offer my services.)

As for your taste. Well, I've seen what you wear, what you drive, what your wife looks like, more over your Louis Vitton sachel. ;-)

I can attest to your style and flair. Beyond that, you are far from being a posuer like the pic of the Mondial in this thread. Having driven, ridden in and worked on your car, I know it is 100% purpose built as a full on club racer.

If you owned a GT-3 spec 308 with a wing, I doubt anyone would say anything.

Cheers!

Scott

Doubleapex Racing CCS/FUSA # 676
EnjoyTheTrack .com
Chief Instructor.

 

Has it occurred to you that Enzo's passion was for the racetrack, not the street?

If you figure that a Ferrari isn't a race car, you must abhor fenders.

 

Want a winged Ferrari that gives plenty of downward pressure for track racing, buy an F40. It's just wrong to have it on a 308 or 328.

 

By saying that 'a' Ferrari is a race car,..... We all know that there is a different purpose for every model, the F40 and the GTO for instance, were intendend for racing. Many other models, like the Mondial, the 308, The Dino were rather GT's. Fast cars for Touring, you could say. Never forget that Enzo only startet building commercial cars, to finance his racing department!
Of course you can race the 308, you can race anything, but to transform the beautiful sculpture that the 308 is, well, it's a free country......!
No offence intended, you know!
Regards!

 

Hi Enjoythemusic, hi Steven!

I really didn't intend to offend you, my criticism for your style has nothing to do with your personal life! Apologise, if it sounded like!
Back to your 308! You have indeed a very impressive racecar as I could see in the pic. My only point is: why transform such beauty, for a few mph more? The great master Pininfarina has designed your car with such perfection, that it has become a milestone in Ferrari's history! You know that the well kept examples fetch a lot of money, the more original the better. I believe one can take the best of 2 worlds: 1.drive as fast you can, take as much pleasure from 'racing' it on tracks, why not? Leaving the car in the original condition is maybe even more challenging to drive ? The cars has great performance, and , of course some shortcomings....who are we to 'improve' such masterpiece?
2. Value stays high when you keep it unchanged, imagine always that sooner or later the car will have to go. At that moment it will be clear that the history of the car is of outmost importance. A too much 'worked on' 308 will not sell easily!

So, maybe all these reflections are not so important to you, you wanna race it, period. I respect that very much, don't be mistaken.
Most of us just love it when the car appears to look as young and virgin as 30 years ago!

Regards!

 

Me too

 

Yeah, you hate it too and can't say i blame you. Visually, it shouts too much.

Could be doable. You may have to meet me at my home and drive the 308 from here to NHIS during open track day as i will be trailering the Formula Continental to the track. Am sure that pains you hearing you'll have to drive the car TO the track, and then track her

Am trying... with the limited funds. If i was a rich man...

Ok, will buy an F40. Can you give me $250,000 please. Oh, and please add another $50,000 as i am sure you want to car to be properly maintained. Will gladly take your F40 as a loner car provided i am not held liable if she gets balled up at the track and totalled. Remember, ANY car you put on the track is at FULL risk of being TOTALLED to such a degree that it is unfixable. Again, you need to pay for upkeep.

No worries my friend. Agree the 308 is a beautiful car and the wing detracts from it. On the other side of the coin, the wing seems to allow for tuning not achievable in other ways. Debated redoing the under tray as well and may revisit that when i win the lottery or ???? For now the 308 has taken a back seat to a more capable track car.

In Formula 1, if you could guarantee a few more mph for $250 they would be all over it faster than a **** gets ****. Look at other, modern TRACK Ferrari cars and you will see ALL of them have rear aero.

Agree it is perhaps THE best design EVER. The curves and lines, the proportions.... beautiful! This is another reason why i choose a EURO 308. As for 'a lot of money,' $45k is not THAT much compared to other bits IF the car was in perfect condition. Frankly, 308's seem to fetch $25k to $35k USD and so that makes it a really cheap Ferrari.

If the car was back to original condition she would be MUCH slower, less safe, handle like a wallowing pig, and the brakes would be marginal IMO. i have seen STOCK 308s on the track and how badly they handle. Severe understeer, brakes that boil over and LOCK UP the calipers (ask Verell and Scott), and the lackluster stock seats throw me all over the place. Add to that, the stock seat belts are basically UNSAFE in my opinion for track use as the 308 does not have air bags nor a collapasble system.

In your opinion and agree in SOME aspects it does.

It has MANY shortcomings that the factory made as the car was setup for road use. For track use there were changes that should be made. There is NO DOUBT the car IS improved for track use.

Value? Investment? a 308? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As for selling her, any guy who wants to track a 308 will GLADLY pay a bit more for the tweaks and development work. Of course i will not break even, but there are quite a few guys who track 308s. Besides, no hard plans to sell her. There ARE plans to be buried in the car (read: 308 as my cofffin) when that times comes.

Fully understand and yes i know the concourse and pure stock guys hate what i am doing. Then you have the hard core track guys who look at all the development work, piles and piles of data sheets, computer files, hard data from the onboard data acquisition system... A guy who wants a cheap Ferrari for the track, well, the 308 is a great way to go about it IMO of course.

Of course there are the Miata guys, though some of us wanted something a bit different to learn on. The 308 is a wonderful visual design and has some impressive things going for it, in stock form for track use is not the way to happyville IMO. If you are ever in America feel free to look me up and if a track event is happening, and does not interfere with my other track car race events, would gladly let you see her at speed.

Lastly, Scott has chimed in here and he briefly drove the car on the track. Scott is VERY experienced with the track. Please feel free to forget everything i say and listening to others who know my car and have seen her on the track.

FYI: here are a few videos. Note the traction circle! i used Mich Pilot Cups tires and am achieving over 1G in the turns. May get Hoosier R6 for 2007 and this will increase the side-to-side G-force ability. As i recall, the 308 in stock form only does 0.87G versus my current 1.1+Gs.

Videos below are gentleman track days, so i try not to crawl up behind someone too close/fast.

Watkins Glen International, damp day, used Mich Pilot Sport PS2 tires. NO wing, NO lightweight flywheel/clutch and before redoing corner weight. Note the understeer in Turn 1 and other places. Was being held up by a car for 1/2 this lap. Not my best lap mind you (which is 2:26), but one where i do have data overlay. Tire screeching is understeer, which was really bad that day.
http://www.ferraritweaks.com/videos/glen090306.wmv


Lime Rock Park using Mich Pilot Sport tires. NO wing, NO lightweight flywheel/clutch and before redoing corner weight. Again, not my best lap, which is 1:06.
http://www.ferraritweaks.com/videos/limerock072106.wmv


New Hampshire International Speedway, Mich Pilot Cup tires. This is AFTER installing lightweight flywheel/clutch and easy to tell when you hear the heel-toe rev speed. This was also after installing wing and redoing the corner weight. Wish i had a same track comparo, but the wing/clutch/flywheel development happened very late in the 2006 season.

NOTE: while the mph may seem slowish, look at the traction circle as NHIS is a very tight and UNFORGIVING track if you make a mistake. Also, the last turn tire screeching is a small touch of OVERsteer as i wanted to throw the car around that very tight turn. It was the best compromize setup of the day.
http://www.ferraritweaks.com/videos/nhis101906.wmv


Hope this helps better explain things, though yes a 308 has been modified to my preference. Ferrari made many thousands of them so fear not. If this was a very rare car i could better see your point. Again, have no love nor hate for the wing, it simply is.

 

Stop giving this guy Steven a hard time. He's got a functional wing, and he is serious about tracking and enjoying driving his Ferrari. My car certainly isn't pretty (although I like the mean look it has), but it definitely is fast.

 

I love your 308 with the wing or without. I admire your passion!

 

please please take it off NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


and fecking shoot yourself