i feel sorry for some of the monterey buyers

Nine of your business what they do with the car, it's there money.


They want to splatter hot sauce on the paint and make vroom vroom noises in the garage and wear out the seats it's there business not yours !

And my friends and I in the late 70 rode our bikes all day and played hockey on the road all day, kids can't don't that today either ...BIG DEAL !! Live with it

Life changes, either accept it or live in the past .... If someone has a dream and desire to own something , then They should find a way like other before them ... It's called working it out , not begrudging the world and other moving forward.

I'm actually very surprised at your liberal heart in this one mr.mayor , you seem to have a lot more compassion for someone who can't afford an exotic , than some of the other more pressing issues In society.

Why do you care if someone drives there restored Dino or leaves it in theory garage to never see daylight - what's It to you ?

 

Why is it always the ones who have who can't see the other side of the coin?

This INDUSTRY of car collection is actually a rather new invention. It didn't exist until the mid 70's. Imagine that! People actually liked classic cars for 40-50 years without treating them as an "investment". How is that possible?

What's happening is a shell game. Dealers and speculators are moving these cars around and passing them off as investments rather than "a car to own and enjoy". Please explain to me how this is not a ponzi scheme.

 

I'm not sure I understand the point. Inflation, demand,, time etc (I don't know how old you are) are all aspects that happen and affect markets.

 

My point is that I was able at a young age get into owning a Ferrari (well, a Dino) with a little cash and a lot of sweat.

That's not possible today. That is a pity.

I have no problem in rising prices. My point is the people buying these don't give a crap what they are buying and only do it thinking it's an investment, a way to park cash, a tax advantage, or just pure ego.

What about everyone else?

 

Yupper. Symptomatic of too much money sloshing around in the investment world, looking for any kind of return and basic manipulation of a market.

One big diff of the car biz is that it's twofold - 1) car to drive 2) investment/speculation. This makes the car biz diff from other types of collectibles, in that enjoyment of a valuable coin or painting or sculpture or whatever doesn't wear it out. So, the two attributes actually work against each other.

The rich folks who want Fcars probably already have 'em. The poor folks who want Fcars ain't gonna get 'em. That leaves the speculators/investors/flippers as the remaining market in which to buy and sell Fcars. Not healthy, IMO.

Bear in mind that posters in Fchat threads do not make up the entire market of buyers and sellers, so whatever -we- may think doesn't necessarily apply to ALL...

Btw, since we've seen this rodeo before, we can extrapolate that the current hot stuff(TR, 308, 328) is likely to end up like yesterday's hot stuff(Dino, Daytona, Boxer). I dunno how the pricing will settle out, but I'm very confident we won't see near as many of these cars actually on the road. So, say goodbye to seeing as many TRs and 328s floating around your local roads.

Sucks for the non-rich dudes who wanna get a car, but that's just the way it is...

I sure wouldn't wanna be stuck with a 'classic' in my garage when the electrics fully ramp up. May be a bit hard to peddle a car then, unless you wanna discount the hell out of it.

 

I hear you, but you still have nt answered the question.

Why do you care ? What's it too you? Dont you have better things to worry about than if a 23 yr old can afford a mondial, or gt/4?

The gt/4 the 348 the 355 or mondial is the equivalent today for that fresh 23 yr old to live the dream ....why does it have to be a Dino ? A Dino was not considered a real Ferrari back in your time , which is the equivalent of the mondial or gt/4 today - so you see, you are Wrong , a young enthusiasts can still get a Ferrari for under 40grand and with much lower interest rates today than when you bought your Dino - so you see.... It's still there, what's your point?

 

Yes, you are correct. Read through this quickly

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/ferrari-discussion-not-model-specific-sponsored-algar-ferrari/495929-absolute-bottom-price-running-fcar.html

It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I'm 29, and it is VERY possible

And my best friend in the world bought a 1990 348TS last Monday for a good chunk less than $30,000. It's possible, and people do care to own, drive and enjoy these cars withOUT having invested millions.

 

i am with the mayor....

 

I just want to be clear. My problem is not "rich vs poor". Ferrari's have always been for the richer ones and that's fine. When I spent $18 grand to finish my Dino in 1981 that was a lot of money (it was for me anyway!).

I have no problem if Ferrari's are expensive. I have no problem if someone wants one so bad they pay 30 million for it if that's what they think it's worth. That's awesome.

My issue is that prices are rising for the wrong reasons. People -- in fact organizations -- are pushing up prices not for the pride of ownership but for the potential profit or tax reasons.

That, to me, is the wrong reason.

 

I too am not sure how higher prices automatically mean the buyers are only speculators and not enthusiasts.

Driven, not driven, doesn't really matter to me. I enjoy other aspects of the car such as cleaning/maintaining or just looking at it. You can't tell me you wouldn't like to see a Lusso parked in the garage even if you only drove it once a month.

If every Ferrari on the planet was daily driven how often would you really see one anyway?

Also I disagree the prices mean they can't/won't be driven. If I had the ability to purchase a 2 million dollar car I would drive it more in fact as refreshing it when needed would likely not be a financial burden.

 

My point is that I have no problem with rising prices if enthusiasts want to pay that for them. My problem is when their are outside influences that raise prices for no reason than to create a bubble, make parts prices, service, and insurance costs rise, and force more people to park them instead of drive them for fear of depreciation or damage.

What was a hobby has become an industry. That's why I'm concerned.

And when it ends its going to end badly.

 

Really? Why would you buy a 512 TR with 300 miles on it for $150 grand? To drive it?

 

Sure why not?

 

So no one has ever bought a low mileage Ferrari and proceeded to drive it?

Maybe not common but I don't think you can with certainty say this is false.

I guess who cares what they sell for if by definition a low mile car will never be driven again.

What is the cutoff btw for these undriveable cars? 1k miles? 5k, 10k? At what point are they considered a car that can be used?

 

Ross corrected me on the price ---$450 grand.

You're right.. it's much more fun than just throwing 300 grand out the window.

Honestly, I've said my piece here. People can agree or disagree. That's what Fchat is for.

There are always two sides to every story. On one hand, it's the free market and people can do and buy whatever they want at any price. IMO, a 4cam 275 GTS is worth every penny of 30 million. 250 GTO? 10 million easily. I have no issues at all.

But the speculators are snapping up and artificially inflating the prices of cars in general. They have no love of what they buy. It's just dollars and sense.

That's not good for the rest of us, IMO.

 

I'm not one of those young people, but my son is - he's 27YO. He's not yet into Ferraris (yet), but he is a gearhead (for some reason that I can't fathom - he's into old Saabs right now).

Mondial 8's are reasonably priced and reasonably available. Maintenance and upkeep (for a DIY gearhead) is reasonable.

For someone like my son, a project 3x8 is still within reach. We've even seen some 348s and 355s go really cheap this year. I remember a long thread on a "Salvage" 355 a couple of months ago - $28K wasn't it?

The "Glamour" Ferraris are now out-of-sight to the average young person. But, I think that if a young person is willing to take on a project - it's still possible.


Sid


P.S - Isn't it a great feeling to say "I did this. or - I fixed this. or I restored this"?

 

You have brought it out, the point that bothers me a little bit...

There will be no "entry level Ferraris",...BUT it has been quietly trending this way, ever since F1 transmission became mandatory.

The truth is, a modern Ferrari is aimed at a whole new market.
And guess what, they are not drivers......in the traditional sense.

Ferrari has become an expensive watch.
Sorry....

 

Here is the danger, that Ferrari themselves do not realize...

The modern young enthusiasts will look the other way, and will not care.

Honda, will be the winners, of that game....on the exotic end, I predict Lamborghini.
They do a FAR better game, of keeping alive the mystique......not sure exactly why....

 

Ross, you are absolutely right to carry your own point of view. I may not agree with it, but I will gladly defend your right it say it

 

I think you hit the nail on the head right there. A perfect example of this is in the classified section here, where someone bought a 3-pedal 575M for $175k only to have the seller bail at the last minute and sell to a dealer's "private collection" for a little more money, who then promptly sold it a few months later for $385k. The original buyer had a great car at a fair price, but the corporate interest won out and made a huge profit. Good for them, but bad for the guy who just wanted a nice car to drive.

 

Agreed.
first world problem.
To be able to spend $2mil or $8mil on a collectible car means the buyer has to be worth at least an order of magnitude more. I don't feel sorry for a healthy man who has at least $20mil and liquid enough to plunk down $2mil on a non-essential item.
There are plenty of cars an enthusiast can drive beside a Ferrari. Not driving a Ferrari isn't the end of the world. If you want one, work for it... or wait. The market will come back down to more rational state

 

I too have been lusting after a 550 since a few years. Higher miles 550s were more like 40-50K Euros at this time last year. The same higher miles 550s are now listed at 80-90K. The market is what it is. One just needs to adjust to it.

At this price point, I will continue to save a little more and buy a 599 instead. Also there are a lot of other options out there (in the 80-90K range) like a manual Gallardo, Aston Martin V12 Vantage, Audi R8 V10, 360 Modena, which may not be perfect substitutes but are good ones none the less. Enjoy any one of these great cars and bide your time till the music stops and prices come back to planet earth again.

 

Guys, guys, can't we all just get along and agree - yesterday was better than today, and a lot of yesterdays were even better. I was just talking to a friend today, and he said the LAST time he went to the Pebble Concours was in '56 - and it was wonderful.