I guess that answers the "are we safer" question

I find it interesting that the Palestinians have done such a poor job that Israel is going to put a fence up around them, call it "Escape from New York". The movie has come to true life, is that wild or what? Make the entire country into a jail, and let the Palestinians fight amongst themselves all they want.

How far did they have to push Israel before Israel decided the only solution was to solve this thing without talking to the Palestinians.. Gosh that's embarrassing enough. But today the Palestinians beat-up the Egyptian Government official that was there to help them.... can the Palestinians ever do anything smart?

Quite frankly, Israel found a way not to depend on the collective intelligence of the Palestinians, and I don't blame them.

 

Art- I agree with you almost entirely on this matter.

I also think we went into Iraq as part of Bush's domestic economic policy, pure and simple. We did what looked like (and maybe even was) a good thing, for entirely the wrong reasons. Hussien was a class act pecker-head, but he's maybe #4 on a list of top ten. I'm for his elimination in principle, but I'm against the real reasons we did it for. He's nothing special.

It's not surprising how the forign press can take a questionable (at best) act, and turn it into something outright heinous and horrible.

Either way, we need to get the F*** out right now.


Best!
Ben.

 

Al Qaeda started this war using misguided Arabs from all over this region. (see map)

Now people say we need to help fix the root of the Arab problems to beat Al Qaeda.

Fine! Bush has dove into the heart of this section of the world and done some house cleaning.

They cry when we don't help! Then they cry when we do help!

After Iraq gets back on its own, and if these people can make a go of it....its a big shiny example of what happens when the USA gets dragged in.

I am sick of always blame the USA.

When my debate opponents want details... I give them details(Iraq is part of the war, all Arab states that have failed governments are). Then they switch to big picture arguments (root cause). You want root cause? Its because the Arabs are all messed up and need some help to fix their world. The Arab people are like any others...they'd like to have a nice life. Their governments suck in some countries and they need our help.

When Daddy spanks you...its for the long-run good. Now stop crying and start looking at the big picture. We built the USA, then we fixed Japan, fixed Europe, beat the USSR and now its time to fix the Arabs. Just relax guys..its only been 200 years. Gee its going to get dull once we finish fixing the entire world, by 2050. I am so proud to be a small part of the one country that has accomplished all this is such a short time.

I voted for Gore, thank god Bush won. Things are getting done!
I like it when things get done! Arabs need less talk and more action! Bush can't talk, but is a man of Action. God! Gore would be talking and talking to the French and the UN, and nothing would have gotten done.

This war will kill 10,000's to make this world a better place for Billions.
Bush "lets get it on"

Or we could wait for the Arabs to fix their own problems. That's a F*cking joke. Their idea of government is screw the masses of the poor and teach them to hate the West.

Thanks guys, the West is tired of your idea of government.

We transformed all of Europe by taking out Germany and its strong man. We can transform all of the Middle East by taking out its strong man in the center.

Osama becomes a moot point if you transform the entire middle East into a successful part of the world.

Unfortuantly for Osama, Freedom is a idea that spreads like a viris if you can just plop some of it down in the middle of that part of the world and guard it until it takes root. Freedom has a way of spreading like fire. Osama is afraid of that. Bush, even if it was for his own personal clumsy ideas...has just given a big shot of freedom to the center of Osama's world.

 

MHO-When you stir up a hornet's nest, there will be some activity. Unfortunately, you can't just drop a smart bomb and get them all at once. It will be like the war against drugs. Or the fight against the mob. Sure, there will be counterstrikes, and there will be new thugs, but eventually, if we stick with it, it might just make a better world. The alternative is to let them run amuck. Not my personal choice. Let the army earn their pay.

 

Art you have it all figured out. Why don't you tell everyone that your
previous leftist Israeli governments of the Ehud Barak, Shimon Peres, Yossi Bellin, and Yossi Sarid already offered everything including the kitchen sink at Camp David and Taba. The leftists did not get very much in return.

The leftists already tried in Madrid, Oslo, Camp David, and Taba.
Perhaps you do not have a partner who is interested in any civilized
solution ? That certainly is possible Art. Listen to what they have
to say on the other side. Hamas does not want to negotiate with you.
Mr. Arafat's regime is corrupted. Who on their side can sign "any" agreement that will be upheld ?

 

Art at some point you cannot give anymore. You are correct that most people in Israel want peace. Peace at what price ? Peace
that will lead to war ? I thought they already had peace back in
1993 when Clinton, Rabin, and Arafat took photos ? Peace with
which government ? A corrupt and oppresive dictatorship that
drags collaborators in the street after 1/2 hour trials ending with
the victim hanging upside down from a lamp post ?

Interesting that you found a fringe element that figured out that
Barak offered far less than originally stated. The Labor party
came out with different figures. Perhaps you can find some other
groups from Afganistan or Iran that mention how Barak offered even
smaller amounts of land at Taba ? The leftists in Israel who have
sued for peace without a democratic partner have already had their
turn. People on this site need to know that the leftists already
tried to make peace. What did they get in return ? Another
armed insurection. Sharon needs to complete the fence and
bring more security. A government is responsible for the security
of its people.

On the right of return ? Nobody in Israel is suggesting bringing
refugees into Israel that have lived abroad for years. NOBODY
What about Sefardic Jews that left the muslim countries for Israel
in the 1950's ? I supppose nobody is going to compensate them ?
Sefardic Jews made up a higher percentage of the population before
the Russians emmigrated to Israel after the collapse of the USSR.
Lets compensate everyone. Don't forget about the "millions" of
Germans that were annexed into Poland after WWII. Are we going
to give Koneigsburg back to Germany ? The way for peace is
democracy. Free elections, and a government that is responsible
to the people. We are all waiting.

 

Everyone has an opinion on what was and was not offered at Taba.


With Sharon gone it will not change the situation. Democracy is the
answer. How are you going to make peace when the man in the
street is neglected ? Are there any free elections in the Middle East ? What are the choices ? Religious oligarchies, dictatorships
and monarchies. When are you going to have "other" choices like the
rest of the world ? Are they ever going to leave the middle ages ?


It takes two to Tango.

 

& free and democratic elections !!!!!!

not just where the # 2 appointed loser has single digit low losing returns.

 

So you see it too? Good post.

 

On the other hand Quadaffi abandoned his WMD program & the Iranians are nervous and may give theirs up also. Too bad that idiot in NK doesnt have a brain cell in his skull

 

its ironic & stupid that govts dont learn from history> If you dont want the Big Dog to mess with you you dont make yourself a threat. If the Big Dog (US) is PO'd you dont get on its good side by building nukes. you get on the safe side by doing what Quadaffi did. This is seen throughout history, Empires dont care what small countries do as long as they dont pose a threat, when they pose a threat they get smashed, ask Saddam, Qadaffi, or any1 who confronted ancient Rome. they all got smashed bcus they built themselves up & became a threat. The US would never have done anything in Iraq if SH hadnt invaded kuwait & threatened the US lifeblood, Oil

 

I have never been worried about monkey boy in NK for two reasons...

First, he is not Arab. We are at war with extreme Arabs. And although we don't want him to give those Arabs weapons... being Asian, he is one step removed from the current war.

Second, and more important, China has total control over this, he is China's "monkey boy". China can turn off the oil, gas, food, they can shut down and stomp on that Country in 12 hours. China just lets him have some slack in his leash so he can scare us... it is their balance of power to keep us from taking Taiwan's side in the separation battle.

I get a kick out of people that say we didn't or don't' attack NK because they have the bomb. That's not the real problem, if we really wanted to attack them we would. But thats not even the point.