I have a dream (comprehensive Ferrari registry)! | Page 2 | FerrariChat

I have a dream (comprehensive Ferrari registry)!

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by rob lay, Jan 27, 2005.

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  1. evandaalen

    evandaalen Formula 3
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    That's indeed an idea, but how to keep the nonsense and lies away from the register? It's so easy to say that I own a certain car, or that I've seen a certain car or whatever.

    And remember the consequenses when you say (for example) that a certain car was repainted, that it was crashed or stolen or so. Very sensitive information which may destroy the value of a car and it won't make the current owner happy. And some owners really don't know that their car was repainted/stolen/crashed.

    All important issues you have to think of ...
     
  2. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    I didn't take it you were, by "totalitaristic" I interpreted the statement as you don't like the COMPLETE and COMPREHENSIVE aspect. If you really did mean the totalitarian political definition, then that's what I tried to stress would be hard to overcome. Just because everyone knows I have commercial interest in FerrariChat.com, there would be resistance with me personally launching this. However, to get it started I think it would take someone like me or some of the Telaio people. That person would have to be extremely passionate, as it would take a bunch of work and commitment. That person would need technical expertise or more importantly the ability to pull together and manage a technical team. That person would also have to be someone with the contacts and trust to pull the first players together.

    To avoid the totalitarian political pitfalls I suggested a board or committee to ultimately have complete control. That board or committee would be voted on by the membership. The actual management position would be controlled by the board. I would get it off the ground, but after the first year I could choose to step down and even if I wanted to stay on, I would have to be reselected by the board.

    Anyway, I think it is a pipe dream for all the reasons mentioned. I also question whether a model specific portion of a comprehensive registry can ever come close to the content of someone who just concentrates on a specific model full time. Seems like in the Ferrari world you have the serial spotters (Telaio, Cavallino, Forza), but much of the detailed information and expertise rests with individuals that focus on one model. The only way a comprehensive registry could overcome this is by integrating these individuals or others to be the managers/stewards of specific models.

    This would never work if run by myself. However, if everyone took ownership of the project... ???
     
  3. evandaalen

    evandaalen Formula 3
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    True. It will never work with just one, two, three or even ten persons.

    In my opinion, it will only work if a large part of the Ferrari community (incl. FerrariChat members, Telaio, perhaps even dealers/brokers) will cooperate in a certain way. That's not easy. I guess every "member" should be able to send information to the register. A large group of "moderators" (all focussed on certain types) should review this information and add it to the register. These moderators should decide which information they want to add. Maybe you should even rate the members and moderators to get a certain level of trust between members and moderators.

    It's just a thought, or have I been smoking too much too? ;)
     
  4. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Texas!
    Rob, I think that this is a great idea, but I still think that you need to get the factory behind it in some way. If for no other reason than to avoid hearing from Ferrari's lawyers.

    I also think that this idea will face significant legal issues over privacy (imagine someone hacking the database) and economic issues. Let's take 0846 as an example (assuming that Jim doesn't mind). Let's change the facts to say that I am the one who brought the frame from Piper. In my case, the decision of your group to recoginze or not recoginze this car will mean millions of dollars. If you accept my car, I will own something worth, what?, $5 million. If you don't, it might be worth $500,000. The swing in value might make it worthwhile for me to sue.

    This is not a trival issue because there will be a lot of 0846 type issues. Even worse, I'm guessing that not even Ferrari has sufficient documentation to answer many of these questions. If the Factory doesn't have the info, how do you plan on deciding these kinds of questions?

    Again, this is the main reason that I think you would need to somehow tie into the Company. Building the ulimate registry without their support would be like spitting into the wind.

    Dale

    ps It is a cool idea though.
     
  5. El Wayne

    El Wayne F1 World Champ
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    I think that the 0846-type issue is less of an obstacle than you guys are thinking. There's no need to be the judge and jury here, only to present the facts as we know them. Under "0846," one would simply tell all that is known about the car's history, including any known theories as to the car's current whereabouts, without stating conclusively that any one of these theories is truth. The key is to be completely objective and to keep personal opinions to oneself.
     
  6. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Dr.

    The idea that with the vast amount of disclosure on my car that the value of my car would be based on what anyone other than the person wishing to buy it, knowing full well what it may or may not be, IMO is silly.

    Best
     
  7. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Texas!
    Jim, this is why I changed the facts in my example. You have made it very clear that your car is a labor of love, not a speculative venture. I hope that nobody takes this example to imply otherwise. You are not in this for the money.

    This is why I changed the hypo to say that I owned the car (which, BTW, I'd love to have. I'll promise to pay you some day. No really! :) ). So let me complete the premise. Let's say that I brought the chassis, AND I did not disclose to the world what I was doing in the hope of eventually making a potfull of money on the deal. The point being that any eventual decision by Rob's registry would have huge economic consequences.

    But, yes, you are quite right. Your car may be the ultimate "stories" car, and someone would have to be on life support to have missed it. I have in the past applauded you for sharing the reconstruction of this car with all of us on F-Chat and do so again. I'd gladly take your car over a Picasso anyday. :)

    If you thought that I was implying that you are doing this for the money, I offer my sincere apologies. Perhaps I should have chosen another example to make my point. I guess your car was just on my mind after reading Erik's article. My bad.

    Dale
     
  8. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Not at all I was simply making the point that Wayne made:

    "I think that the 0846-type issue is less of an obstacle than you guys are thinking. There's no need to be the judge and jury here, only to present the facts as we know them. Under "0846," one would simply tell all that is known about the car's history, including any known theories as to the car's current whereabouts, without stating conclusively that any one of these theories is truth. The key is to be completely objective and to keep personal opinions to oneself."

    Best
     
  9. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Texas!

    Wayne, I don't think that this ultimate registry would be able to dodge this bullet. Remember, Rob used the phrase "verify." This implies a judgment, like it or not. The alternative would be a site where anybody could post anything that they wanted to post. I think that these sites already exist. :)

    Your thoughts? Dale
     
  10. El Wayne

    El Wayne F1 World Champ
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    Again, I think the obvious solution would be to remain objective and record all known theories. If there are three cars claiming ownership of a single chassis number, then record information on all three, including any claims/theories and the names of those making the claims.
     
  11. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Whether this is a dream or not probably depends on how detailed all of this is going to be. I know of at least one team that is working on just this and I gave them all my s/n I had so far. It is a lot of work, but doable IMHO depending on how detailed and all inclusive you want it to be.

    An effort like this I see actually quite as the opposite of totalitarian, disseminating information I consider democratic. Quite frankly I take issue with people who keep information to themselves. I understand they spent huge efforts gathering it and make a living off of it now, nothing wrong with that. But on the other hand I would like to see nothing more than these fortresses of data destroyed and the information spread amongst the people.
     
  12. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    Well, we can legally handle it like we handle posts on FerrariChat.com. FerrariChat.com isn't responsible for what is posted, the poster is. You can have a registry where every piece of information is referenced. You might even be able to get away with saying "unknown".
     
  13. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Texas!
    I agree with Andreas that this effort would not be "totalitarian" and would, in fact, be the opposite.

    I don't agree with Wayne and Rob that it would not need some kind of gatekeeper function. Let me give one example. A while back, I built a database for Maranellos available on the Internet. While doing so, I came to understand Gerald Roush's insistence on serial numbers. Lacking this information, the non-serial number listings where at best junk, and at worst fraudulent. I'm not throwing stones here, but go browse FerrariAds. How many of those cars are real? Who knows? So if anything goes on this registry, I predict that it will soon be junk.

    Now, perhaps the standard doesn't have to be the same as Ferrari's "Hertiage Certificate." But there has to be some kind of crediability for listing. Maybe one way of eliminating 13-year olds who have too much time on their hands would be to charge a fee?

    Dale
     
  14. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie

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    I am posting this on behalf of me and my father, having spent thousands of hours and over twenty years researching nothing but Series II 500 Mondials. And after all that, the only thing we can say with certainty is that there were 10 motors (tipo 111). We can't even say how many CARS were S.II 500 Mondials - it is between 7 and 10. The huge obstacle in ever knowing the comprehensive truth about many of the early racing cars is that Ferrari does not even know the truth. It appears that in many, if not all, instances, when a race car had its motor pulled, the original motor page of the Assembly Data Sheets was thrown away and replaced with an updated motor page (dated weeks or months after the car was born) showing the new motor. So while the telaio may have an MD suffix, all of its known history INCLUDING the only ADS Ferrari has on the car, shows a 3-liter motor. So what is the car, a 500 Mondial, or a 750 Monza?

    Sorry for the long-winded example, but do you see what you're getting into? In the words of my father, "it is a swamp that can never be fully drained." Throw on top of that (1) owners and brokers who have a vested interest in owning/selling a car w/ a more illustrious history than may be the case (everyone relax, I'm not saying ALL or even most owners/brokers manipulate history), and (2) fairly impenetrable factory secrecy - and you further cloud the issue of objectivity. Even posting alternative theories doesn't really help because, as Mr. G can tell you, even a thoughtfully and fully disclosed theory will have its naysayers that will disagree to the death. And then there are some theories that I wouldn't even put on the bottom of my birdcage, but seem to persist year after year - do they get equal time in the register? In a sense, EVERY Ferrari is a 'stories' car because the origin of the story is only as good as the existence, condition and accuracy of its ADS - and for the old racing cars, this is spotty.

    I think it is a very cool subject to debate and I think the thread title is aptly named.
     
  15. El Wayne

    El Wayne F1 World Champ
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    I'm talking about controversial issues such as the one surrounding 0846, not some Joe Blow claiming he owns/owned a 550 Maranello.

    Ideally, I would like to see it become something more like a library (eventually archiving photos, documents, articles, books, etc.) that also maintains an online database available to members and not something like Andrew has on his site (no offense, Andrew), where the general public just adds info.

    I also don't know exactly how comprehensive something like this could be. To cover only cars/models manufactured up to a certain period (like our vintage section here, for example) would be a large enough task in itself. To try and maintain files on every single Ferrari built up to the present date would be insurmountable.
     
  16. GTE

    GTE F1 World Champ

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    It could only work when everyone is properly aligned to the same goal, the database gets official alliances with the world top Ferrari historians and who are generaly regarded as such, and, last but certainly not least, when there is a big fat disclaimer for instances where people acted upon information gathered from this database while this information turns out to be less than correct.

    Even if the database would label the info 'verified' there is no 100% proof over what is the thruth and what isn't.
     
  17. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Call me naive, but aren't we exaggerating the problem a bit? Think about the production numbers of Ferraris in the past and today. The majority of the vehicles are built today and hence getting information isn't such a big deal. Granted the vintage cars are more interesting and probably more important, but there are also a lot less of those.

    So from a purely quantitative perspective the majority of this data should not be an issue. Of course there is the old Pareto rule: 20% of the cars will cause 80% of the effort...But cars like 0846 are one in what? 50,000 produced, so the "trouble makers" are truly a minority.
     
  18. evandaalen

    evandaalen Formula 3
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    But this minority (a lot larger than you think) can cause A LOT of trouble. I'm sure the guys of barchetta.cc will agree. So, you really have to figure out all the legal aspects (copyright, privacy, sensitive information and the publishing of "errors"), also in respect of laws in other countries ...

    It's not a reason to forget this dream, but just a very serious thing to think about.
     
  19. GTE

    GTE F1 World Champ

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    Lets say you have two or three troublemakers who'll hunt you down right up to the supreme court or whatnot. That pretty much takes the fun away.

    Besides, when you have the pretention to offer complete information, you better make sure you back that claim up before you start charging people for it.

    I just think most of the 'common' knowledge can be find in numerous books, magazines and other types of publications. It is out there. You just have to look. Furthermore, It is highly questionable that everyone who has information to offer, will sell it to this database.

    Apart from this, I suppose there'll be many people in the commercial publishing-business who really aren't that excited by a initiative which makes every publication, past, present or future, obsolete. There's a market out there for this kind of stuff. A market with many players who have different interests than Ferrarichat.com.
     
  20. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I agree that most of it is out there, hence my argument, that this exercise might not be as big of a deal as some believe it is.

    What I would like to see is actually all of this in one place. Starting with S/N defines the skeleton structure, as time progresses more data can be added for each individual vehicle.

    I bought a good book about all cars ever produced by Ferrari at their shop in Maranello. Triumphantly I went home with it thinking I found the holy grail. If it is from Ferrari, it must be right and comprehensive, correct? Well, it was rather trivial and non comprehensive and of course a letdown.

    That's just one example why I like Rob's idea. The Internet has given us the technology to do it, a place like FChat gives you access to many people who know and/or have some of the priceless information.
     
  21. GTE

    GTE F1 World Champ

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    In terms of quantity, it would be a massive operation. And I'm not talking copyright-issues either.

    But anyone who is planning on publishing any Ferrari-related publication in the future, has no interest in a database which makes his plans obsolete.

    However, I do agree that if there would be a definitive source for Ferrari-information, it would have to be internet-related.

    Exactly, but F-chat is in itself a fantastic source. You could have any question about Ferrari and the chance if it getting answered on this site is about 99,99%. I mean, ask anything about an Enzo, and NNO will be present with an answer in about 2 minutes. Ask anything about any vintage Ferrari and Wayne or kare will take you down to every detail. Ask for a picture of any vintage car and Boudewijn will be likely at your servive. Fan512bbi if its about a more contemporary tipo.

    In case of a database, we wouldn't have to ask. We'd just have to look. It is passive. To ask on a board like this, can and does spawn numerous exiting discussions just to raise further questions and even more answers.

    Perhaps I'm saying that I like Fchat as it is and that I don't see any additional value in an elborate Ferrari-'FAQ'
     
  22. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Maybe I'm missing a bet here. As mentioned elsewhere on F-Chat, I'm involved in publishing a new book on Boxers. Yes, we do plan on including a registry. But I can't see anyone buying the book just to get the registry. Nor, can I imagine anyone not buying the book, if the are interested in Boxers, if it didn't have a registry. After all, any paper-registry will be quickly out-of-date.

    I don't see the problem coming from the publishers. I see the problem coming from those trying to hawk fakey dos.

    May I suggest this? I think that the Rob's idea of doing this through a non-profit is probably the key. We can call it the "Ferrari Historical Society" or some such rubbish. Obtaining non profit status will require us proving that there will be no personal benefit accruing to anyone involved.

    From there, we can appoint an initial adivsory board and go from there.

    But don't think for a minute that we will be able to get away with not having some kind of gatekeeping function.

    Dale
     
  23. kare

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    What a problem; with the introduction of gate-keeping it will be Animal Farm all over again and without it nobody dares to run it. I think Edvar knows the problems involved with gate-keeping and I most certainly would not want to wear his pair of wooden shoes here!

    In my opinion the whole cake should be divided into small pieces. Going public with manufacturing info (s/n, destination, exterior and interior color for starters) would lead into only a few or no problems at all. It's usually the later history where the problems start.

    For a long time I have thought to create a list of serial numbers sorted by different models TO SHARE. Some of the lists would be complete (up to 365 GT/4 BB or so with only a handful of problems), some would only include known cars (anything from 1975-76 onwards) as no complete lists seem ever have been released.

    Then those who intend to build a database or register could instead of spending days typing in serial numbers, download a prepared list, that would be as accurate as possible. This would most certainly iron out most of the double entries often based on permutation of a recorded chassis number. I am sure a lot of confusion could be avoided and these lists could be re-checked everytime when somebody finds a problem.

    I think I have discussed this idea with a few people a few years ago (Edvar?) and would probably already have put the ball rolling hadn't Raab's Ferrari Serial Numbers been re-printed. I don't want to shoot anybody's business into the knee.

    Best wishes, Kare
     
  24. Peter

    Peter F1 Veteran
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    All I can say is that it would be a monumental effort, regardless if a few, or a hundred people are running it. My 208/308 GT4 Registy takes up all of my free time. One example: I've been contacted by a fellow who bought one new in 1978 and is currently looking for the current owner. I only have a few notes about it, and he will take it from there and let me know if he finds out more about it. In the meantime, for the past week, he shared with me photos and an account of the history when he owned the car. Very neat stuff.

    But that's just one model of Ferrari, one particular car and one of it's owners... 2000+ more to go...
     
  25. evandaalen

    evandaalen Formula 3
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    Being complete is simply impossible. And you don't want that: if you claim to be complete, you also claim that all data is correct, without any doubts. And you shouldn't want this, because of the problems mentioned before. Always include a huge disclaimer that information in the register might not be correct.

    Almost all books contain errors or are at least out of date. That's of course one of the advantages of the internet, to keep it up to date! And it's not necessary to get the cooperation of everybody, but at least of a large and important group.

    Even with the current internet, big players like Cavallino, Forza and Ferrari Market Letter still survive. A large register will change certain things for them, some negative, but also some positive ...

    The only problem I see from publishers is the copyright aspect.They surely don't want to see copied text and pictures belonging to them.

    :D

    But I certainly agree with you, Kare. Gate-keeping is necessary, but also very difficult and sometimes also a pain-in-the-you-know-what. Believe me, I KNOW ...

    And yes, these problems will sometimes scare you. Rob surely knows about it too. And eventhough you sometimes want to run away, other positive things will make it worth. Regarding an online register, it just needs lots and lots of planning, plus the cooperation of many persons.

    You can't start with an empty register, so it's indeed a good point to find out what to start with.

    Oh yes, we've discussed these things before. But new times offer new possibilities (Kare, Rob, you know what I mean).

    Yes, it will indeed be a monumental effort, I know all about it. That's why it will only work when lots of "big guys" will cooperate.

    Greetings, Edvar
     

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