Beautiful day yesterday so I took my 575 out for the first time since I bought it last month. I have owned many high performance cars in the past but this is the first with an F1 gearbox. I have a few qustions to ask. When in 3 or 4th gear and you come to a stop do you: A. pull both paddles and go into N and coast? B. Down shift through every gear till you reach 1st then N C. Just use the brakes and let the car select the correct gear? the car has tons of low end power and is a bit intimidating but once i drive it a bit I know i will just love it.
Dominic- There is no correct answer. I personally drive my F1 car just like I did a manual, so I select neutral from higher gears when coming to a full stop. If traffic starts to move while you are in neutral, hitting the upshift lever will give you the highest gear in which the engine will run smoothly. This will be way too high a gear. If, however, you hit the downshift lever, you will get one gear lower. Still a little high, but much better. Note this does not save throw-out bearing wear like it does on a manual transmission. First the clutch is a constant contact design, and second, the clutch is always open when you are stopped with an F1 shifter. Taz Terry Phillips
If driving in town and using anticipation of the lights, stop signs, traffic, etc. , I find that around 40 mph 3rd gear is the one that will slow you up the best and smoothest. From there just let the car downshift itself until you stop. Then shift into neutral. I hardly use the brakes anymore. At least that's what I do around town. Jay
Jay- Exactly the opposite from me and I never let the car automatically downshift. Just proves there is no correct answer. It is all technique. Taz Terry Phillips
Taz, not sure if I understand some of this. Are you selecting neutral during normal deceleration on the basis that it is cheaper to replace brakes versus F1 clutch? Bill FL
Bill- It is just more cycles on the throw-out bearing and clutch to let it downshift like that, plus cycles on the synchro rings. I never did that when driving three pedal cars, so no reason to change with this one. All just technique and how you drove before you got an F1 shifter car. My brakes will never wear out, so not even a consideration for me Got the double sided tape yesterday. Many thanks. Taz Terry Phillips
Thanks Taz, it makes sense. I do drive a stick similar, coasting or using the brakes to a stop during passive driving. With the F1, I was letting it run through it's down shifting cycles. Hadn't thought much about it yet. Appreciate the thoughts, and no worries on the tape. Also, knew your brakes weren't a factor, more of a general comment. Bill FL
When I know I am coming to a complete stop in normal driving I always drop to neutral whether F1 or stick. Like Taz says it's whatever method you prefer. It is pretty cool that if you don't do this the F1 will take care of it for you.
Taz, I have only owned two flipper cars (a Stradale and Maser), and I flipped (sic) them within six months or so (for what I paid). So I don't have a lot of experience with these cars. But the clutch wears seems excessive. Frankly, I can't recall ever having to replace a clutch on a stick car. (Well, there was this old truck, but that doesn't count.) Having to replace one at 15k miles would be embarrassing. What causes this excess wear? A Ferrari tech told me about the reverse issue, but how much time do people spend going backwards? Moreover, I can't see upshifts being that much of a problem. I'm wondering if the problem is downshifts. It is so cool to pop downshifts that maybe the problem is people downshifting faster than they normally would. When I'm driving a stick on the street, I like to downshift through the gears, but only when the RPM is below 2000 or so. I'm also curious why so many people say the auto mode causes excessive wear. I can understand why someone doesn't like it, but how can the computer calling the shots cause excessive wear? Call me confused. Dale
Quote: Jay- Exactly the opposite from me and I never let the car automatically downshift. Just proves there is no correct answer. It is all technique. So, Taz...not liking being opposite from you!! Then there would be less wear on the clutch if I would just shift into nuetral when starting to stop instead of letting the transmission automatically shift down? Or do you downshift each gear manually and then go to neutral when stopped? Jay
Jay- When I know I am coming to a stop, I shift to neutral out of 4th or 3rd, depending on speed. Not everybody agrees, but that is also the way I drive a manual transmission. So far I have never worn out a clutch in nearly 50 years of driving three pedal cars, but then I never had a car with reverse nearly as high as 2nd gear, either. The 575M's reverse is pretty high. Brain Crall taught us how to check clutch wear on the F1 575M, so we will see how I am doing during this spring's annual service. My technicians were listening and learning. Dale- Auto mode causes no more wear than manual shifting, if you shift like the car does in Auto. That means going up through every gear, normal for any method, but then going down through every gear when slowing. I do not drive that way. Downshifts are only useful when they put the engine into a usable range for the driving conditions. So downshifting for corners is natural to keep the engine in the power band. When coming to a stop, downshifts, to me, are just noise and wear. Taz Terry Phillips
So are we in agreement that excessive clutch use in F1 cars is caused by downshifts at high rpms? Dale PS I hate to sound like an idiot because I kinda dropped out for a while, but what is a TMPS?
Dale- All the downshifts in F1 systems are rev matched so do not cause much clutch wear. Most clutch wear is from standing starts, especially in reverse. Taz Terry Phillips
Dale I guess you mean TPMS and not TMPS. TPMS = Tire-Pressure Monitoring System. The F1 system knows some tricks where I am not sure if all of us already know about: You can double (or even triple) shift gears by double shifting the paddle (as double clicking with your computer mouse). This works for up- and down-shifting. If I just accelerate to normal speed I use gears 1-2-3-4 and then double shift/click into 6. I did this quite a lot with my manual cars by just shifting from first to second to speed up and when I had speed I shifted directly to 6th. The same works if you want to down shift from 6th to 4th: Just double pull the left paddle. There is another trick: When you are halting in first gear, you can pull the left paddle. A beep will signal that the F1 system will engage the clutch earlier at lower revs. This is intended for starting at hills to treat the clutch with more care. The same works when you are in rev gear. This mode will be terminated automatically as soon as you drive faster then about 10-20 km/h. May be that all of you already know about these tricks but I thought I may probably help somebody. Markus
Interesting. I knew about the double pulls but not about the single left pull in first. Does the car revert back to normal clutch "engagement position" after moving forward once this is performed ? Or do you have to pull the upshift paddle at the next stop? I'm guessing it just reverts by itself.
Okay, I get it now. They didn't have these on the 550s. BTW, I assume you guys know it is bad luck for EVERYTHING to work on your Ferrari, yes? But I'm still confused (which is my normal condition). If the computer does all the right things and the right times, how come everyone is blowing through clutches? If I got only 15,000 miles on a stick clutch. I'd be embarrassed to show my face. Dale
Dale- Clutch life depends on driver technique for both F1 and three pedal cars. The V8s with no torque and wimpy clutches typically have way more problems than the torquey V12s with thicker clutch plates. Incidentally, here is the hill start mode Markus was discussing. Had to explain this to 360 and F430 owners who were still hearing the old wive's tale that the clutch slipped continuously in reverse. It does not. This page is missing in about half the 2002 OMs. Who knows why. Taz Terry Phillips Image Unavailable, Please Login
Correct. The car reverts back to normal clutch engagement position as soon as you drive faster than about 10-20 km/h. At the next stop you have to pull the left shifter again if you want to engage this "special" mode. Markus
Some thoughts about clutch life between F1 and a manual gearbox: 1) When I start with my manual cars I usually handle to engage the clutch just a bit about idle rev. Probably 1 000 rpm or so (in stop and go traffic situations, not when I really want to accelerate). The F1 system fully engages the clutch at around 1 500 to 2 000 rpm if you start gently. I guess this is not a big issue but over time I could imagine that this well wear more then my manual procedure. 2) When you push the throttle hard during start, the F1 system disengages the clutch in such a way that you have the optimum rev for the fastest acceleration possible. This is great fun for me but not necessarily for the clutch. In a manual shifter I usually do not start like this. 3) I like to upshift at 7 500 (or 7 800 exactly) rpm with full throttle and in sport mode. Then the F1 system shifts gears really fast. Much faster then I am able to do manually. I assume that this will wear the clutch more than my slower shifting with a manual gearbox. As Terry writes there is basically no difference between the manual gearbox and the F1 system if you treat the F1 system the same way as you drive your manual. The thing is that some people (at least me) sometimes make full use of the nice F1 system with the effect of more clutch wear. Markus PS: Quite a long time ago I had a manual Ford Probe (the one with the Turbo) and had to change clutch at about 45 000 km. Before my 575M I had a Maserati Coupé GT with Cambiocorsa (F1) and had to change the clutch also at 45 000 km. Of course the two cars and clutches are completely different but it shows that I was able to wear out a clutch in both cars. So probably it is more a question of my driving style and not so much of the system.
Markus- The rev limiter on the 575M shuts off fuel flow at 7600 rpm. If you are getting more, it is overshoot or the tach is off. Unless the ECU is reflashed for a higher red line. Psorella- Although the clutch disks are the same thickness between 360 and 575M at ~8.35 mm, the wear limit on the plate for the 575M is almost twice the 360's at 1.5 mm vs 0.8 mm. The 360 is also a torqueless beast compared to the 575M, and that allows clutch engagement at lower revs without risk of stalling the engine on the 575M. That is easier on clutches. Taz Terry Phillips
Terry - Affirmative. I checked the red line when I was sitting in my car the next time and realized it is at 7 600. Thanks Markus
Bill- The F1 system will not allow a downshift that will exceed the 7500 rpm red line. The fuel cut-off at 7600 rpm occurs in Sport or Normal. It is a pretty soft rev limiter and I have bounced off it a couple of times. Taz Terry Phillips
