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I turned the key & my $$$ flashed before my eyes.......!!!!!

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by kerrywittig, Apr 22, 2010.

  1. carguy

    carguy F1 Rookie

    Oct 30, 2002
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    Jeff
    QUOTE FROM EARLIER POST:
    "Now there is a new twist to as what may have been the real culprit of the belt failure........Yes no doubt there was substantial oil contamination.....but....the 10mm nut on the adjuster was able to be removed while bolted in place with my fingers. 2 to 3 turns and ....Boing went the spring......"

    The cam belt tension is basically constant, it is locked down by the bolt that goes through the center of the tensioner bearing. Once the tensioner is "set" during belt installation...bearing cannot move unless the center bolt loosened - and that would be an immediate disaster. While it is VERY disturbing to hear that the 10mm nut was only several turns onto the threads...it is probably not the root cause of the belt failure. The shearing off of belt teeth as shown in the pictures...suggests a failure of the belt material itself.
     
  2. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day Jeff,

    Could it not also be possible that an event stopping the Cam from turning cause the belt to look like this (i.e. dropped valve, drive pulley bearing, etc )?

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  3. carguy

    carguy F1 Rookie

    Oct 30, 2002
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    Yes Sam...those are also possibilities. Kerry said that the cams are not seized, so it's not a bearing problem. It could be a dropped valve...that will have to be determined after some disassembly.

    I'm still tending to agree with Kerry's earlier view that oil contamination may be the major issue. The left side (U.S. car driver's side) cam belt is nearest to the engine block, and the right side belt is further out in front. If the car sat idle for an extended period of time like over a winter, with the cam belt subjected to the oil leak...and the motor was not turned over during that time...it would have to have some effect I would think.

    I have also heard theories of belts taking a "set" if left in the same position for extended periods of time. I don't know if this would affect the belt teeth or not though.

    Knowing Kerry...he will find out the true cause....
     
  4. Hawaii

    Hawaii Formula Junior

    Jan 28, 2007
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    Emery
    "The shearing off of belt teeth as shown in the pictures...suggests a failure of the belt material itself. "
    I don't see any pictures of the belts??? I'm I missing something?
     
  5. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    A dropped valve presents no problem to the cam or cam drive. It does present a problem to the piston and head.

    If a cam is not or did not sieze in the head that was one of the mythical belt failures that according to some nitwits around here never happens. Oil may have played a part but that could not be seen from the pictures. If Kerry is amenable I would like to see the belt. Be more than happy to send it right back.
     
  6. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    See post 75
     
  7. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day Brian,

    I guess I was inferring that the dropped valve jammed into the piston and thus causing the cam to stop moving. Indeed, a bit of an inference on my part however, I was just looking at other possibilities.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  8. kerrywittig

    kerrywittig Formula 3
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    #108 kerrywittig, May 13, 2010
    Last edited: May 13, 2010
    Just to put the, "How did this happen!" debate to rest...............

    This happened because of owner/operator error......or should I say MY procrastination. I knew of the leaky crank seal and I just kept putting it off and I finally got bit....MY BAD!!

    Rifle offered to take a look at the belt and we spoke about it in fact. I related to Brian that the belt was very much oil soaked.....you know when the rubber almost feels "soapy".....and we have agreed that there is no need to send the belt out to the left coast just so he can immediately have the same obvious conclusion.

    At this point it is a matter of getting the heads off, gettting valves ordered and sending it all to the machine shop. I am most concerned about ordering the correct gaskets and seals, as far as what I really will need.............Want to get just what I need and not waste money on gaskets "in sets" that I won't use. If any of you out there have any gaskets, seals or valves collecting dust on a shelf and want some pocket money let me know..........big pockets....LOL!

    Hey if anyone would like to "LOAN" me the TR specific head bolt wrench I could put up a deposit of twice the value (approx. $1000) and turn it around in a day...........any takers?

    Oil soaked & frugal ME
     
  9. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    I understand but if it drops a valve it would be out of contact with the cam.



    The main thing all should remember. Belts are very strong. If they are not chemically or age compromised this will not happen. It really is that simple.

    There is a lot of paranoia here about belts. They are very good, they are very reliable. Juts change them at the proper time and keep the petro chemicals off them.



    You want horror stories? I'll tell you horror stories and they all involve chain drive motors.
     
  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Kerry, I just sent a PM.


    BTW For everyone else. The Hill tool listed for the 4 valve motors DOES fit TR's. It is for ALL 4v motors, not just the V8's.
     
  11. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ
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    THIS is something I would be interested in hearing. I have seen damage in done by a timing chain on the front of an inline 6 when the guides disintegrated. Not pretty. Timing cover and water pump destroyed, engine block gouged.
     
  12. finnerty

    finnerty F1 World Champ
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    May 18, 2004
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    Oil doesn't evaporate. The belts will either have oil residue on them, or they won't --- that will tell you something.............
     
  13. finnerty

    finnerty F1 World Champ
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    #113 finnerty, May 13, 2010
    Last edited: May 13, 2010
    My bad....

    I posted my previous comment before reading your last post, Kerry.

    I guess that question has already been answered --- and, you likely have your "smoking gun"...or, should I say, your "slippery gun" :)
     
  14. kerrywittig

    kerrywittig Formula 3
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    I just ordered the Hill tool # 95971393A (Courtesy of Mr. Rifle)...........Spoke with Daniel and he said the only thing he thought might be problematic might be that the "socket" area of the tool might be a bit too deep. But an easy fix by removing a bit of material from the tool and all would be well and also NOT compromise the tools integrity.


    Tool ME
     
  15. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Factory tool was the same way. Because of casting irregularities of the heads fit was a little hit and miss until a little grinding is done.
     
  16. Beta Scorpion

    Beta Scorpion Formula 3

    Jun 22, 2006
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    This post and thread are worth a million useless 'timing belt' threads.

    Thanks for sharing your experience guys.
     
  17. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ
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    Ditto. Finally, first hand experience with contaminated belts.
     
  18. jungathart

    jungathart Guest

    Jun 11, 2004
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    #118 jungathart, May 17, 2010
    Last edited: May 17, 2010
    Hi Kerry,
    As per our conversation yesterday, I am saddened to hear about the damage to your car.
    Sounds like with Rifledriver, et. al. on board; and along with your own talents, this story has a great chance for a happy ending.
    I have emotional and prayer support to offer, and they shall be ongoing until she's on the NY back roads once more.
    Godspeed
     
  19. kerrywittig

    kerrywittig Formula 3
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    Yeah sorry for the short attention span I demonstrated.......do the search concerning the O2 sensors or just post the question...........I shall hopefully have some new pix of the engine "flying" into it's temporary home later today and maybe even a possibility of pix of the damage....If I can figure out where I set my camera down in the garage!!!

    Blood, grease and bruised ME
     
  20. xtcgt

    xtcgt Karting

    Nov 20, 2009
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    Robert Boynton
    i made my own head bolt tool by welding a boxed wrench to a 3 in extension and shaving the box wrench untill it fit around the nut.
     
  21. kerrywittig

    kerrywittig Formula 3
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    #121 kerrywittig, May 18, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  22. jungathart

    jungathart Guest

    Jun 11, 2004
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    Kerry, looks like you can park a tank on that engine stand.
     
  23. finnerty

    finnerty F1 World Champ
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    #123 finnerty, May 18, 2010
    Last edited: May 18, 2010
    Kerry, .....just curious.... looks like you've removed the cams from DS bank, but not the PS yet --- how are you "locking / holding" those PS cams in place??? Or, is that the bank you already know is toast, so you're not concerned about it???
     
  24. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Why lock them?


    They are not going to move on their own.
     
  25. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    Aug 10, 2002
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    socal
    That's funny! Me too...I was too cheap and too much in a hurry to buy one.
     

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