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I'd pay $50 more for NOT talking to India!

Discussion in 'Other Off Topic Forum' started by PeterS, Nov 21, 2003.

  1. PeterS

    PeterS Three Time F1 World Champ
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    OK..I'm pretty pissed right now! What I should have done was re-dial the 800 number until I got somebody that spoke good English.

    I called Dell to place an order for a new computer. My call was rolled over to their Customer Service in India. Due to her fluency in English, the lady that fielded my call had an extremely difficult time with my simple questions. This transaction was very frustrating and could have taken a third of the time that it did.

    Do CEO's have a clue to the fact that by saving money (Moving services to turd-world countries), they frustrate customers (like myself) that may not return to buy from them?
     
  2. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ

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    PeterS, i know this isn't what you want to hear, but the u.s. is a free country and anyone here can pretty much get any job they can get... even if their accents are difficult to understand... As the office manager for an insurance brokerage, i often come across this "problem", however, part of me understands that this is part of being an "american"and then i just deal with it... BesiDES, the company in question probably hgired thatmpersojn gor a reasoin...
     
  3. PeterS

    PeterS Three Time F1 World Champ
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    DES...I don't think you got the jist of my post....Its the American people (of all races) that are losing their jobs. US firms are farming out jobs outside of the US. They (the busines owners) and turning the operations on (out of country) with people that are not proficient in the English language.

    I guess we all want our $.99 Big Macs and the masses will suffer through the delivery.
     
  4. Gilles27

    Gilles27 F1 World Champ

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    Peter, I'm with you. I called for Tech Support and got into a similar situation. The person I got kept telling me what to type, but every letter she said sounded the same, kind of like "ehh". I understand why they hire like this, but you need your phone people to be able to communicate with their specific market.
     
  5. TestShoot

    TestShoot F1 World Champ

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    haha.

    Well be glad you don't have a Toshiba laptop like my assistant here. He has to call TURKEY for parts. You would think that India, being formerly under British rule/occupation (however you see it) would have a better grasp of, if not proper Victorian, English.

    Remember when they save a buck today on tech support, they shave a few hours off your life in the form of phone calls to far off lands.
     
  6. Artherd

    Artherd F1 Veteran

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    Spring PCS 411 just got completely useless for the same reason.

    I ask for a listing in San Francisco. "Sana-what?" she says. "Where is that?"

    Sheesh.

    I'd have no problem outsourcing to India or wherever, if they weren't idoits picking up the phone. I have a problem with domestic idoits too.

    We americans are going to turn into an intresting community soon. Full of CEOs who are fustrated 411 users, with no one left to serve us.
     
  7. Evolved

    Evolved F1 Veteran
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    In truth it costs about $400-$600 per machine more to not talk to India.

    Its called buying an IBM product or shopping at the local best buy and paying 300-400 more for the super dooper if it breaks we give you a new one service.

    I hadn't realized Dell OUTSOURCED SALES. Time to short that stock.
     
  8. MikeZ_NJ

    MikeZ_NJ Formula 3

    Dec 10, 2002
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    I wasn't aware they outsourced sales, either. Customer support has gotten worse and worse though because of the outsourcing.

    Write a letter to Michael Dell. I guarantee someone will call you within a week or so, and voicing your concerns will help towards the struggle.
     
  9. rmani

    rmani F1 Veteran
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    China and Korea were both several times under Japanese rule, yet very few, if any speak ANY Japanese at all. I'm sorry but that statement that they should speak English just becaus they were unde British rule is pretty ignorant.
     
  10. Evolved

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    The british empire built roads, schools and railroads while exploiting the local populus for the benefit of tea time in the home counties.

    Japan used entire villages to test poison gas.


    Two entirely different versions of colonialism.

    But it's a huge county of a billion people so even iof half the people speak english there are still 500 million that don't.
     
  11. miked

    miked Formula Junior

    Feb 7, 2001
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    It's not just the customer that gets poor service, it happens internally too.
    I work for Procter & Gamble which use to be one of the most employee oriented large companies in the world. Not any more, now it's just another Wall Street business chasing the next quarter's earnings report. In the last few years the top management has sold off most of our top brands (and all the employees & buildings that were part of the business) and sometimes leased out brands to "contractors" who produced them elsewhere. Our IT support and financial administration is now contracted to companies in Costa Rica that pay a small fraction of our US wages. Of course now instead of going down the hall for help and resolving the issue in minutes, we have to call Costa Rica and if we are lucky, resolve the problem in a day or two (can you say "loss of productivity"?). The upper management claims a huge savings for the stockholders (Wall Street institutional investers) while lots of people loose their jobs and those that remain get dumped on. Our CEO recieved a HUGE raise and bonus this year which probably would have offset the "savings" he achieved by outsourcing.
    I recently saw on the news that there are "Outsourcing Conventions" were US business managers can shop for the best outsourcing deals. All the players are there- India, China etc. Even former outsourcing leader Mexico is getting outsourced.
     
  12. F SPIDER

    F SPIDER F1 Rookie
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    It will all get resolved in the long run. Once the economy is better and people have disposable income they will eventually choose for the company that puts service first (and you pay for it). I am willing to pay for quality and quality will come back.

    Rijk

    PS. This is how Rob lost his job, and that is why I'm also willing to pay for F-Chat.
     
  13. andrewg

    andrewg F1 Rookie
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    With this sort of thing gaining momentum on both sides of the Atlantic, how long is it going to be before Bush 'n Blair come to their senses and realise that whilst its ok for them to be linning their pockets, the country's their supposed to be running are falling apart through this sort of stupid short term thinking
    Personaly I like to be able to walk into my local bank branch and speak to some one face to face or if I have to phone at least share a common language (not being racist just practical, if i can't understand the accent of the customer services agent then there is huge scope for misunderstanding and confussion!, leasding to the loss ofmy custom)
     
  14. mlambert890

    mlambert890 Formula Junior

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    It's an inevitable trend. Ultimately, I suppose it will equalize as the massive savings corporations are supposedly realizing are reinvested in their local economies theoretically creating other types of jobs. Of course every time this happens (and the cycle seems to be coming faster and wider as time marches on), thousands of people are cast aside and never recover.

    Maybe India (with 10's of billions of dollars and millions of US jobs now flowing in), will actually develop some kind of economy of their own and actually become a useful trading partner rather than a job sink.

    The key is to figure out what job is least likely to be outsourced and get on a fast track career change (that's what I'm trying to do now).

    Tech support, customer support, network support, application development, financial analysis, research science, phone sales and textiles are all basically dead for US workers. Of course it would be nice if the colleges would snap out of their stupor and start telling kids this as they bilk them out of 10's of thousands of dollars (all the while telling them that they're just not smart enough to compete with the kids in India who can live like millionaires on $12k/year).

    Welcome to the global economy. I gotta say that I'm certainly not happy that my social security number is plastered all over India thanks to every bank outsourcing. Just think how bad ID theft will be getting in years to come! I wonder who will foot the bill when these Indian workers start to realize that the SS# and credit history databases they're now in charge of are worth 1000x more than the $5/hour Chase and Citibank are paying. Sure it can (and has) happened here already, but the difference is that US workers can be (and have been) prosecuted by the FBI. These Indian workers are untouchable - their government would probably secretly give them a medal for perpetrating a massive ID theft scam against US citizens.
     
  15. PeterS

    PeterS Three Time F1 World Champ
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    MLambert wrote:

    I gotta say that I'm certainly not happy that my social security number is plastered all over India thanks to every bank outsourcing. Just think how bad ID theft will be getting in years to come!

    Here is a factor I did not think about that should scare us all to death!
     
  16. darth550

    darth550 Five Time F1 World Champ
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    DES? Are you really trying to resurrect that TIRED thread about understanding the words with the letters mixed up?

    Okayyyyyyyyy.

    DL
     
  17. Schatten

    Schatten F1 World Champ
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    The problem is just beginning. It is in its early stages and companies will not realize how bad it will become. It only starts with language and accent differences and then expands to cultural differences. Once those are no longer, then the decision makers will realize that it is hurting our jobs on the mainland, but only after they realize that their customers have gone elsewhere.

    The economics are quite easy: instead of paying tech support personelle 25-45K a year in the states, they will save in the long run by paying someone 3-4K a year in India. Yes, that cheap. But implimentation costs and time are extremely costly and can take up to a year to get setup, and a few years down the line to notice the benefits to a company. The execs are looking at their bottom line. Some execs have seen that once they outsource anything - even coding which is quite common - their customer base will bash them and boycott them. But eventually it will no longer be India doing the support, because India will turn around and outsource for something like 1500-2000 a year in Russia - because it is cold hard cash - something that is difficult to come by in Russia.

    As far as privacy standards and being outsourced in India - well those have been breached. And nope, bank records, even if pulled up in India and used maliciously, unfortunately not much could be done at all. Personally, I feel it will come down to identity theft overseas. But it will need to happen to a key decision maker at a company that outsources their staff.

    If you want links to some of the stories I've drawn out above, let me know. But I encourage you to write Michael Dell's office by sending an email to Michael_Dell@dell.com - but if you want to get him personally, use Saul_Dell@dell.com - he doesn't use Michael address at all. But of course, once this is public, which it might have changed, well... it will be shut down. But I know I'm not the first to say this.

    The Future: if history repeats itself, then it is doing so at an accellerated rate, and it is all a matter of knowning what is next and beating the game, or at least anticipating its arrival. So, really, what would be next?
     
  18. FerrariFrank1

    FerrariFrank1 F1 Rookie

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    Got to agree with everyone here. I had to call Microsoft for customer service last weekend. The 800 call went to India. It was 2PM my time,so,I have no clue as to what time that it was in India. I was on the phone with her,(their dime) for 2 1/2 HOURS!!! MOSTLY,because of her VERY heavy accent,( hey,I was calling HER country! ) And,I had to CONTINUALLY say,"What?" What?" " WHAT!!!???" And,you know how calm and mellow Indian people are (Think Ghandi) well,I had this woman practically screaming because SHE was starting to get frustrated because I couldn't understand her,and had to keep asking "WHAT!!!???" An American. Calling an American country. Getting this kind of "Service?" WTF!!! Doesn't Microsoft make enough BILLIONS of American Dollars,already? I bet that Microsoft could pay EVERYONE that works there,all the way down to the lowest cleaning person,no less than $20,00/HR,AND,Pay all of their Health Care benefits,AND STILL make millions and Billions of Dollars in PROFITS! But,these corporate types are TOOO greedy. A few "Million" just isn't enough,anymore. "Greed Overrides" and they have to have MORE! MORE! MORE! Same thing with making reservations at Alamo. I asked the guy that was taking the reservations, "By the way,where is your call center located?" He replied,"India". WTF!!! They can't find anyone HERE that will work for minimum wage ($5.50/HR.) to do that? Some poor single Mom who would take just about ANY job just to feed,clothe and Shelter her American Family? No wonder our economy is rapidly going down the Toilet. A typical American Family can't even barely make it anymore. Yet,corporations can pay CEO's MILLIONS and Millions of dollars a year. The corps. profit margin keeps getting bigger. The rich get Richer. And,there are HARD working people who can't even make it any more. All of these kids spending all of that time and money to go to College,yet left "holding the bag" when they graduate. No job. Sorry! And,the people who didn't go...forget about it! I think it's about time that the "Free Ride for Corporate America" comes to a screeching halt. Then,we have our wonderful "public 'servants'" who make a TON of money every year,off the backs of the Hard working American Taxpayer...NOT the Foreign ones! And,these asswipes are "DEBATING",as to giving our country's senior citizens,who's backs' this country was built on,The Poor,"Working Poor" and Disabled,the people that NEED it the most,...Prescription Drug coverage and Relief. God Forbid! It might take a few dollars out of the pockets of the Drug Companies/Corporations. Their "Buddies". Yet,after "Serving" only a few years. THEY get Paid medical benefits,FOR LIFE!!! And..They get Pensions,which are subsidized by OUR tax dollars. When the vast majority of people working in the Private sector no longer even GET pensions. Why in the Hell should the people who have to save for THEIR OWN retirement,also have to pay for the Retirement of so called "Public Servants". Who,more than likely,do Disservice to the Taxpayers of this great country! I could go on and on. Just makes me more angry. Somethings got to give,and I think it's got to happen...SOON! There's a song by "Motorhead". It goes,"Eat the Rich. Eat the Rich. Bite down on the son of a B*tch!" It's going to be coming down to that! (but,I'll bet you that Bill Gates would taste like sh*t,anyway!) These guys are eventually going to FORCE the Government to start Regulating them. And end up F*cking themselves.(Yea!!) The "Free ride" will then be over,and we'll have the Government even MORE into the every day lives of Americans.(NAY!) Big brother will then get bigger!
     
  19. tvrfreak

    tvrfreak F1 Rookie
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    It's all about saving money, pure and simple. Call center worker in India costs $100 per month. That's less than $1 per hour. Phone call costs zero as they typically use Voice over IP. And they speak English better and are technically better (on average, and for the same unit cost) than the Americans, Chinese, Filipinos, Mexicans, etc.

    It's become a self-service economy, unfortunately. If you need help, prepare to be sidelined. The only other option is to pay a premium.
    There are qualified people out there, but most people don't seem to like paying an appropriate amount for their services.

    In my experience, these local professionals work out cheaper and better in the long run, too. If you need tech support (who doesn't), I suggest compiling a little black book of local and web-based resources whose service levels you are satisfied with. I hate working on computers, but my number is on plenty of other people's speed dials!

    It's not much help when placing an order for a product (I was put on hold for 10 minutes for each question I asked when I placed an order for a client--yup, it was a Dell rep in Inda, using my $30,000 order for training), but you can just dictate your requirements to a pro and let him suffer through the phone call. Outsource the outsourcing!

    :)
     
  20. JOEV

    JOEV F1 Rookie

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    For those of you that have had to deal with Six Sigma in the work place,
    you just KNOW that all of this came out of green and black belt projects. All that matters is the cost avoidance you can show - it doesn't matter if the process has become more inefficient or customer unfriendly. Everyone has just got to be certified!

    For those of you that don't know what I'm referring to, consider yourself lucky.
     
  21. PeterS

    PeterS Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Joe V..Six Sigma was formed from a group of guys that came up with another quality program to make money on. Just like the industry from 1995 to 12/31/01, remember, the Y2K programs? Just slick marketing guys that sell corporate leaders on programs to make everyone's life 'Le Miserable.
     
  22. MarkG

    MarkG Formula Junior

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    America will be 'out-sourced' until we become a 3rd world country. Forbes predicted 5 million jobs lost to out-sourcing over the next few years. An independent think tank says that figure is understated; could be up to 15 million!

    Out-sourcing American jobs ONLY benefits the CEO's bonuses and a small handful of MAJOR stock holders. It does nothing for America as a nation. It’s all about greed. The most common response I hear from management is "they (customer's) will just have to get used to it" when confronted about growing customer satisfaction issues. Again, its not about customers, its not about America, its all about personal greed for a small handful of business leaders who will Never have to worry about their next meal or medical coverage.

    President Regan lovers talk about the 'trickle down economy". Think about the 'trickle down' affect of 5-15 million Americans becoming unemployed or under-employed:

    * Repossession of already over priced houses (depending where you live)

    * repossession of autos

    * credit card payment defaults

    * loss of medical insurance resulting in massive increases in public debt (Medicare. etc.)

    Credit Card companies see the writing on the wall which is why, under the soon to be passed Bankruptcy reform act, credit card debt will no longer be excusable.

    Now factor in the fact that these unstable countries will have full access to your SSN, credit card numbers and medical files. Some of these countries are on a continuous verge of revolution;

    Now imagine what this information would mean to a terrorist organization who has sympathizers in these 3rd world countries!!! Imagine receiving your monthly Bank of America (the latest CC company to outsource) statement and finding a charge that turns out to have been for weapons purchases in Iran!
     
  23. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
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    Here is your first mistake.

    I have found that service people in India speak BETTER english than many of those who qualify for $5/hr wages here in the USoA!

    [QUOTEDo CEO's have a clue to the fact that by saving money (Moving services to turd-world countries), they frustrate customers (like myself) that may not return to buy from them?[/QUOTE]

    It is the customer who is driving this train! Every time you hear: "Where can i get the best <insert item here> for the least <cost, dollars, price> another job leaves this country! T

    his is a classic battle between micro-economics and macro-economics! In micro-economics every consumer attempts to optimize their "utility" function (getting the best for the least). In Macro-economics, you learn that if everybody does this micro-economic thing, then nobody ends up with a job! And then one learns that in order to keep his job, he has to allow the next guy to keep theirs. In order to save your job, buy american, but only if they pay US income taxes.
     
  24. PeterS

    PeterS Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Here is my prediction in 2-4 years:

    The companies that manage the outsourcing will fire current employees for even cheaper workers, thus making customer service worse than it is now. I don't think India will be ammune to what is happening in the US.
     
  25. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

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    At least Dell farmed out to India & not China
     

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