Identify 275 GTB/C | FerrariChat

Identify 275 GTB/C

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Anteriore, Jul 30, 2005.

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  1. Anteriore

    Anteriore Formula Junior

    Jan 4, 2004
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    Ramon
    Dear Ferrari historians,

    Most of you will be familiar with the book "Ferrari by Pininfarina, technology and beauty" by Etienne Cornil (note: 2002 edition).

    In chapter 4 (page 245 at the top) there is a picture of what seems to be a 275 GTB/C 1st series. The car is being described as "an experimental 275 GTB in light alloy". The picture was taken outside the Pininfarina plant.

    The car features a normal squared off nose as on other 1st series GTBs,
    250 LM style headlights and driving lights, front and rear bumpers, rear cooling vents, alloy wheels, outside fuel filler cap in the fly panel and a hood bulge that extends all the way to the badge on the nose (like on 250 GTO s/n 4091).

    Is this a 275 GTB Speciale or one of the GTB/C? Somebody knows the s/n and history of this car? Where is it now?

    Best
     
  2. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Rookie
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    Feb 21, 2004
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    Your car is 6021, the first 275 GTB/C.

    I saw this car at Montreux in 2002, owned by René Maspoli (CH). Must have a pic somewhere...
     
  3. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Rookie
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    #3 Aardy, Jul 30, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  4. Anteriore

    Anteriore Formula Junior

    Jan 4, 2004
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    I am not quite sure it is 6021 although I looked trough the others and that was not convincing me either. Did 6021 once had front end damage that was repaired in another way? The front looks quite different from the picture.
     
  5. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    Could it be 7217gt?
     
  6. Boudewijn

    Boudewijn F1 Rookie
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    May 15, 2003
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    S/N is 6021. It also is pictured with S/N in "Le Ferrari di Pininfarina" by Anselmi page 262.
     
  7. Boudewijn

    Boudewijn F1 Rookie
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    #7 Boudewijn, Jul 31, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  8. enzotoys

    enzotoys Karting

    Aug 12, 2004
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    Gilles Lachance
    #8 enzotoys, Aug 1, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  9. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    Nose should be more the same as 3413 GTO (bonnet bulb all the way to the nose)
     
  10. Anteriore

    Anteriore Formula Junior

    Jan 4, 2004
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    Ramon
    Yes, that is the picture I was referring to. Thanks.
     
  11. Anteriore

    Anteriore Formula Junior

    Jan 4, 2004
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    Ramon
    And like 5571GT, for that matter.

    I don´t question Aardy and Boudewijn, they know what they are talking about, so I assume the car had many modifications done through it´s life. Mainly the nose and some details like the wipers...
     
  12. Anteriore

    Anteriore Formula Junior

    Jan 4, 2004
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    Ramon
    What book did you take it from? Also, there seems to be "6021" written above...
     
  13. enzotoys

    enzotoys Karting

    Aug 12, 2004
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    Gilles Lachance
    This photo comes from the book : The Ferrari legend : The road cars by Antoine Prunet (page 304). Its seems that 6021GT got two different nose treatment during its early life : first with a GTO 64 hood bulge extending to the Ferrari nose badge. Later with a Lusso hood bulge as used on 6885GT and 6701GT. Another possibility is that the prototype 6003GT as been modified more than one time (it is already know that it began its life with a short nose and was later modified to long nose configuration : wore race #43 at 1966 Monte Carlo Rallye driven by Pianta and Lippi). The reason is that 6003GT was kept by the factory as a development car. They tried different proposed modifications on it before introducing them on production cars. It would be very interesting if someone could identify correctly the car on the photo I posted this morning.
     
  14. zjpj

    zjpj F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
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    Oh so beautiful!
     
  15. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    Nov 11, 2003
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    I hope you are aware that many cars have been misidentified in this book. Therefore it is very difficult to be sure which early 275 GTB is which. Ferrari usually used the first car completed for photshoots. Therefore if the design by Pininfarina was final in the very beginning, 5161/GT may also be one of the cars appearing in factory photos.

    5161 - never seen photos. Rolled during testing and never seen again (?)
    6003 - believed to have been the normal production version (normal shortnose with normal parking lights) photographed for promotional material. 6021 - believed to have been the one with some special features (ridge on nose, LM-type aux-lights, filler under a flap on c-pillar) photographed for promotional material on same location as believed 6003.
    6357 - I have nothing on this car - any help??? Destined to FBA (in France).
    6437 - special with PF badges and no vent window on driver side.
    6449 - Turin motor show car

    and so on...
     
  16. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    Where is this car? Said to be the 3rd Speziale like 6885 and 6701
    Pictures!!!!!
     
  17. enzotoys

    enzotoys Karting

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    #17 enzotoys, May 4, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Sorry for this late post, but I would come to the conclusion that #06021GT had different configuration over the years and was used by Ferrari to test different tricks before integrating them on competition 275 GTB.

    Here is my reasoning :

    On page 35 of Jess G. Pourret book on 275 GTB-275 GTS, published in 1984, there is a contemporary photo showing the rear of 06021 GT (see attached photo). We see that this car has a large rear window as introduced in October 1965 by the Paris show car (#07887GT according to Bruno Alfieri book on 275 GTB/GTS). Why did Ferrari take the trouble to enlarge the rear window of #06021GT constructed one year before ? In my opinion, this confirm that Ferrari used this car to test some new ideas.

    As we have seen in Post #7, 06021GT has an outside gas cap on the right C-pillar. This looks like a small improvement given to the car pictured on page 304 of Antoine Prunet book "The Ferrari legend : The road cars", which had its gas cap under a flip on C-pillar.

    Since the car pictured on page 304 of Antoine Prunet's book has not yet come to the surface, I come to the conclusion that it is #06021 GT which has been modified over the time and its '64 GTO hood bulge has been replaced by a 250 GT Lusso hood bulge as adopted on 06701 GT and 06885 GT.

    I would appreciate to read some historian opinion on this particular car (06021 GT).
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  18. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #18 Marcel Massini, May 4, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    First of all, the car in the photo of post #8 is NOT S/N 06021. The car in that photo was painted YELLOW, not red.

    Secondly, 06021 was red when new and raced by its first owner Antonio Maglione of Rome in at least four (4) Italian hillclimbs in Italy during June and July 1965:

    13 June 1965 at the 1st Trofeo Marcello Venturi Frascati-Roma
    29 June 1965 at the XV Coppa della Sila
    11 July 1965 at the Trento-Bondone hillclimb
    25 July 1965 at the Cesana-Sestrière hillclimb

    I own all Italian ACI PRA documents for 06021 which confirm the names of owners in Italy, the dates of ownership, chassis and engine number and license plates. The first registration was 14 April 1965 on Italian plates "Roma 823952".
    On 23 April 1965 06021 was sold new by the factory through official dealer Vecar Srl. in Rome to first owner Antonio Maglione, Rome/Italy. Price paid was Italian Lire 5'750'000. Sales contract issued in the name of "L'Immobiliare Nazionale Costruzioni Edilizie INCE s.r.l, Rome".
    The first two photos below are from "Auto Italiana" and "Auto Sprint" magazines, showing 06021 in its very first hillclimb at Frascati with Maglione on 13 June 1965. Note hood bulge and license plate. On 6 December 1968 this car was exported from Italy to USA. It was sold to Peter G. Sachs, who sold it to Jeff Jones, then the car returned to Sachs and Serge Dermanian rebuilt the car.

    Below is an email I received today from Peter G. Sachs in New York (4 May 2006):

    "Dear Marcel,
    The history of this car is as follows. As you no doubt know, this GTB was the third one built and a prototype for the 1965 customer comp cars. The factory kept it for some period (it was built in 1964) and then sold it to someone in Rome. At that time the car was painted Amarante Roma, a kind of dark maroon. It was brought into the USA in about 1966 by two local Boston bankers of Italian background who had found the car for sale in Rome. The car was painted Rosso Chiaro. They had bought it to resell it and I purchased it in 1967 from them for $7000 and drove it on the road around Boston for about 18 months. In 1969 I moved to New York and Serge Dermanian sold the car for me (I made a big profit, at least in the terms of those days). I do not remember the name of the buyer, but Serge might. This guy was, it seems, into the drug trade in Boston. Serge would call me from time to time and tell me about all the dings the car had from being parked on the street, etc. In that period Serge also replaced the driveshaft (the small early type) because the owner snapped it drag racing on the street.

    Then, perhaps it was 1972, Serge called me to tell me that the car owner had been thrown in jail and that the car had had the body repaired by a local shop who I knew well in Allston, a suburb of Boston. They had stripped the aluminum body, fixed the dents, and repainted it in the same color. The owner could not pay the bill - I think it was $1800 - and the shop had exercised a mechanic's lien on the car which meant that they could sell it. So, I bought it back for $2000. I then kept it at my home in Connecticut for several years and finally traded it in 1981 to Joe Marchetti in Chicago to obtain my 250GTO. Joe sold it (perhaps through Bill Jacobs who was Joe's cousin) to someone out in the Chicago area who had the car repainted a darker shade of red - he raced it once when I was racing at Elkhart Lake - and it eventually went to Switzerland.

    So far as I am aware, this car has always had its original body in all respects. There are some photos, taken when I had it in Connecticut, in the middle of Pourret's small 275GTB book. And I also have some photos of it in my files.

    This was a very special car and had the best gearbox of any Ferrari I have ever driven. If Mr. Maspoli ever wants to sell it, perhaps I should own it again - for the third time!
    Regards,
    Peter"

    I also include here photos showing 06021 in Montreux June 2002 when owned by René Maspoli.
    COPYRIGHT MARCEL MASSINI
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  19. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    As an aside I remember once seeing a short nose without a side vent window.

    Best
     
  20. enzotoys

    enzotoys Karting

    Aug 12, 2004
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    Marcel,

    Thanks for those informations about #06021GT. Now, the question that remains unanswered is : Which car is pictured on page 304 of Antoine Prunet book : "The Ferrari legend : The road cars" ? Could it be #06003GT ?

    We know that this prototype eventually was modified to long nose configuration and participated in the 1966 Monte Carlo Rally. Is it possible that Ferrari tried on it some 1965 competition goodies during the interim period ?

    Best regards.
     
  21. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
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    Please note that the correct serial number is "06021" and not "06021 GT", without any suffix. As you can also see from the photos of the chassis number in my post, plus from the chassis badge. Same for the build sheets and ACI PRA docs. No "GT" suffix.

    As for your other question, we will find out. It takes a bit more time. I will come back on this later.
    Marcel Massini
     
  22. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    Is this car (s/n 5161) still around?
    Does it look like a GTO64?
     
  23. 400iGuy

    400iGuy Formula 3
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    Aug 26, 2004
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    Interesting to see I'm not the only one that has carried small spare parts around in various locations of my car. :p
     
  24. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    Interesting question about s/n 5161 which never seemed to get answered. Was it crashed as someone suggested or does it still exist today?
    CH
     
  25. enzotoys

    enzotoys Karting

    Aug 12, 2004
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    According to the book " Ferrari 275 GTB/GTS" published by Bruno Alfieri (Automobilia) in 2004, s/n 05161 was a 250 GTB prototype (no typing error here).

    It seems it was built a few weeks after the last 250GTO Series I (05111) and before the 3 250GTO series II (05571, 05573 and 05575).

    Jess G. Pourret wrote in his book about 275 GTB and 275 GTS (my translation):

    " The first prototype of the GTB was studied during the year 1963, at the same time as the 250 LM. The first berlinetta was conceived with a 250 engine on chassis number 5161 GT."

    Farther Mr. Pourret wrote :

    "The first prototype of the 275 GTB (06003) was built at the end of 1963."

    I would be very curious to see a photo of s/n 05161. I guess it does not exactly look like the car that is considered the first 275 GTB prototype (06003).

    Mr. Massini, please lighten ours lights again !
     

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