IDF stops 14 year old suicide bomber

zjpj, as soon as you figure out how to right the wrongs from 3,000 or 1,000 years before, I will be the first to support you. But there are plenty of documented wrongs from 80 years ago to the present. Those we can fix. Shouldn't we?

And we try to prevent or at least protest the commission of more wrongs. Shouldn't we?

 

I would not expect you to comment about the 14 year old boy carrying the bomb.

Since that is the title of this thread, all my comments pertain to it. To be specific, what comment are you looking for? I think it's a tragedy. He's a kid, used by manipulative, evil people. How a situation can be so bad that someone thinks they can only make a statment or get attention by killing themselves is beyond me. It is also equally beyond me how you keep people in camps and respond to rocks with rockets, and deprive them of just about all opportunity and subjugate and humiliate them at every turn. I have seen it firsthand so don't try to justify with it some convoluted logic. There is NO JUSTIFICATION. And if you see or experience it, I am sure you will feel the same RAGE.

As for the "other" organizations in addition to Hamas, who feel that all Palestinian Land must be liberated, what comment are you looking for? Yes, such organizations exist. They too espouse values with varying degrees of logic. What are you looking for? Support? Disavowal? I don't really understand what you are getting at.

First of all, I don't know where you are getting this from. But even if it were true, how it's remotely relevant is beyond me. You tell me?

 

Here's where i get lost: don't know who is right historically, and it won't make much difference at this point anyway. But, it is my understanding that the militant Palestinians (including the "spiritual leader" of Hamas who got it the other day) preach, believe, and act upon an understanding that Israel should not exist. While there are no doubt radical Jews who refuse to broker peace, they do not and ultimately will not run the show. So, if the question is resolving this thing--and i have no idea how the geographic boundaries match cultural reality (but assume that some plausible line drawing could take place that would at least, theoretically, allow both groups to co-exist)--why is it that there are Palestinians, seeking to exterminate the Israeli/Jews, that have any part in this process? And are viewed with sympathy as an oppressed people, merely murdering to regain what they believe is theirs? I know they are "freedom fighters" and "martyrs" in the eyes of some, but I don't see any parity between the sides. How is that reasonable?

 

Grandparents are Greek. Uncle worked in Jerusalem and married a Palestinian. Uncle and aunt now live in Eilat. Cousins and nieces and nephews live in Tel Aviv, Haifa, Netanya, West Bank, Dimona, etc. Too many places to list at this point. My dad met my mother when he went to visit my uncle. My own mother is Jewish. She grew up watching the situation worsen day by day and wanted to leave Israel after my parents got married. They moved to Cyprus.

 

The MAJORITY of Palestinians hold a moderate view that desires peace. They not only have to fight for their cause, but also overcome their own internal corruption, the US media's slant, and countless Israeli blocking tactics. Your difficulty in finding them is due to many reasons, but it's not because they don't exist. Of course, the current Israeli government's twisted politics would rather have you believe this is the state of affairs.

 

My question. Why waste the $23.00 on the kid since he's oing to blow up anyways. Unless he was going to give it to his family.

I couldnt even begin to imagine living in a place like that. I guees it's to understand growing up with westren thoughts and beliefs.

 

I hate to sound like this but it didn't get nasty till MONEY came in



Someone has to buy all those guns and explosives someplace and money is the key. Power and Money the religious context is just window dressing

 

Read 'em and weep. Or watch the videos.

Palestinian Media Watch - this showcases the brainwashing of young Palestinians into being killers of selves and Jews.

 

You guys are addressing issues that I have tried to bring up on numerous occasions. As I have said, I don't know the solution. What I do know (and forgive me for repeating myself but this is a topic I think about every day):

- Arafat is corrupt and incompetent
- There are groups (Hamas et al) that want to destroy Israel
- Expanding settlements is anti-peace, plain and simple
- The policy of targeted assasinations is utterly counter-productive and of course, anti-peace
- Yassin has been replaced by even more militant members of Hamas. He has more power as a martyr than he did as an old man in a wheelchair.
- The right wing in America gives carte blanche to Israel
- The left wing the world over gives carte blanche to Palestinians
- North American media does not give us the full picture (e.g., Settlers commit atrocities against Palestinian farmers and their fields, but we never hear about it in North America)
- Until there is a Palestinian homeland and self-determination this violence will continue
- Millions of people living under occupation have nothing to lose; they are therefore capable of anything
- The "Security Wall" while justifiable on the one hand, is a land grab on the other hand.
- And on and on and on.....

Like I've said before - someone tell me something that offers hope for both moderate Israelis and moderate Palestinians. I've had enough of one-sided sound bites and propoganda.

Joe

 

Joe V, nice post.

Jobs, education = hope. Prosperity, self-determination, dignity = hope. These don't exist in Palestine. And it's not because the Arabs are idiots or don't want it. They are an oppressed people. Don't take my word for it. Cross the barbed wire line for yourself. You have to do it on foot with guns pointed at you as you try not to fall into open sewers because Israeli soldiers will not allow repairs to be carried out.

There are no jobs in Palestine unless you wish to join the corrupt police force. Noone has any money to pay employees. Even if you barter for food, you can get killed working in a field. It will be reported that a "Palestinian militant" was shot dead. If you are a Palestinian with a job in Israel, chances are you will not be allowed to cross back 3 days out of 4. Even if you are a limping grandmother who has been strip-searched. It's asinine and unfair.

Ralfabco, in this context, you will understand my confusion at your question of "Where are the Palestinians who want democracy?" or "Why aren't they fighting to end corruption?"

 

Spouse-swapping.
_

Disillusionment vis-a-vis the Old City once again being turned inside out by impassioned inhabitants in, on and around the Living Museum begs the question: Will their own personal God forgive them, let alone His supposed enemies for their transgressions in His name?

These various religious fanatics, leaders, zealots - indeed entire Governments seek absolution, redemption, if not martyrdom through acts of violence - and not that of pure faith. Their desire to walk on Holy Ground has the most fatal flaw in each side's fabric - The Devil mocks their every step. Each side believes the other to be the Poster Child of Damnation once they've departed this earth, if not while on it - and themselves bound for a heavenly paradise when their God calls them home.

While neither should take a laissez-faire approach to the time their God calls one of their own home at the hands of a "non-believer", they must accept this is the risk they - not God - chose by being in this region. If they base their life on being there, then they base their death on being there as well. It is they who do not understand that most important part of lifes equation who wail and gnash their teeth about the lives lost - whom they themselves jeopardized by bringing them into such an environment. And yet, they seek revenge for their own flawed logic in choosing living arrangements. The toll, as it always has - mounts upon The Mount where the figureheads of their respective faiths ascended into Heaven. Mourn, move on.

Should some wish to peacefully exit the Old City for a time, and live to tell about it - let them. Should some wish to remain - let them. Whatever munitions they've got - let them be resupplied no more. Let those last bastions of Faith and Promise and Hatred do battle with each other until there is no man standing. Let those who wish to return and rebuild their precious City do so. It is nothing new under the Sun of Man, nor the Son of God. The revolution of the damned will be televised.

 

Hamas may be more popular than the PLO, but that's not saying much. PLO is horribly corrupt. And they haven't delivered on their promises to bring peace. Neither has Sharon, and he is unpopular even in Israel. He is the first Prime Minister under whom Israeli troops have refused to carry out orders. Hamas is seen as a way of responding to Israeli terror tactics in kind. A very small payback for some of the atrocities and indignities that the Palestinians have been enduring. So that has given Hamas whatever popularity it enjoys. Ask an ordinary Palestinian if it's ok to kill a baby and you will get the same horrified reaction as anywhere else. Ask him if it's ok to kill his child, though, and you just might get a different reaction. Of course, that shows what terrorists they really are deep inside. Right?

You don't make peace with a culture. Ralfabco, I don't understand your statement. You need to make peace with the people so that you foster a peaceful culture. Even the present Palestinian culture does not encourage children to become martyrs. A few do, yes, and they are the ones whose images and voices are amplified by the media. In the same article, there are usually quotes by parents and other adults that blast Hamas and denounce this mentality. It's amazing how you choose to ignore those voices. Of course, that wouldn't support your claims about Palestinians.

 

You have been insisting on democracy as a cure-all for a long time now, ralfabco. Plenty of countries get by just fine without being democratic. Democracy is not a requirement for peace. They don't have a neighboring nation threatening their very existence, though. You will find that democracy has not been one of America's successful exports. Rather, everytime it has tried to impose it--Vietnam, Haiti, Iraq, on and on the conflict rages, sometimes simmering, sometimes erupting, leaving a lot of damage and unresolved differences in its wake.

 

Wax, did you write that yourself? Very impressive. Do you write professionally? If not, you should.

 

Agreed.

Just as the radical Jews are sidelined, so too sideline Hamas. When their cause celebre ceases to be a desired goal because people are able and happy to go about their own lives, they will not run the show either. Then, Hamas would be a security problem and nothing more, like the IRA, ETA, etc. To start, do negotiate with the moderates. Do make good on promises. That has not happened.

Because people around the world can sense unfairness and see their viewpoint and recognize that they are an oppressed people locked in a freedom struggle. This is what garners them their symapthy. Violent reaction to violence is not reasonable? Gandhi would be proud. Mandela too. Most others would invest in a good weapon.

 

Has anyone EVER FOR ONE MINUTE stopped to think how whinny 70+ virgins would be? SERVES 'EM RIGHT.

 

Since their native language is Arabic, I would assume that their civics lessons are printed in Arabic. Your request is beyond absurd. Suicide bombing is a depraved, absurd, maniacal act. Why would there be ordinary brochures or leaflets against it? Show me a brochure against killing pregnant women. Or slaughtering cute kittens. Or jumping off tall buildings. Just because they don't exist, am I to presume that Americans encourage this? Simpleton logic, and it does not work.

As for Mrs. Arafat's allowance, it is wrong because the money is ill-gotten. If it wasn't, it would be insignificant. Plenty of private individuals spend much more in a month. Or are you against wealth? Why are you putting me in the position of defending this? Did I ever say that it was ok? Or does it somehow support your stance that peace can never be made with the Palestinians? How is it relevant? Mrs. Arafat spends a lot of money that her corrupt husband gives her so there should be no peace between Israel and Palestine? I don't get the logic.

I didn't say the grandma should not be searched. If you go back and read my post, you will see that I wrote that she had already been searched, and found to not pose a security risk. The soldiers STILL refused to let her in. I saw this with my own eyes. She was pleading with them to allow her to support her family in language that would make you cry. As for the pregnant woman analogy...again, after she has been found to be truly pregnant, should she be allowed to proceed to the hospital or not?

Finally, here is some Palestinian condemnation of the exploitation of the boy. It's in English, written by a Jew for a British newspaper...and I have cut and pasted it below in case the link does not work.

Israelis Stop Teen Wearing Suicide Vest

Thursday March 25, 2004 8:46 PM


By GAVIN RABINOWITZ

Associated Press Writer

NABLUS, West Bank (AP) - A Palestinian family voiced furor Thursday at militants who sent their 16-year-old son on a suicide bombing mission, saying the extremists had exploited a naive boy.

The family's anger reverberated through Palestinian society, where people expressed shame that children had become weapons in the violent Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

``We just want them to leave us alone,'' said Tamam Abdo, the teenager's mother.

Open criticism of militants is rare in Palestinian society, where consensus is valued and questioning the behavior of armed groups is seen as a betrayal. Some Palestinians are silent for fear of retribution.

While many in the West Bank and Gaza Strip still strongly support suicide bombings as a weapon against Israel, they have become critical of the militants' choice of attackers in several incidents this year.

In January, a 17-year-old boy died when his bomb belt exploded prematurely, a week after his 15-year-old brother and a cousin were killed in clashes. No group claimed responsibility.

A few days later, Hamas sent a 22-year-old mother of two young children to blow herself up at a crossing from Gaza into Israel, killing four Israelis.

Earlier this month, two 17-year-olds blew themselves up at the Israeli port of Ashdod, killing 10 Israelis. On March 16, Israeli troops stopped an 11-year-old boy allegedly trying to smuggle explosives through the same checkpoint where the teenager was caught Wednesday.

Israel said militants had given the 11-year-old the explosives without his knowledge. Palestinians denied he was carrying a bomb and claimed the incident was fabricated by Israel.

The most recent uproar grew from the capture of 16-year-old Hussam Abdo, detained wearing an 18-pound suicide vest at an Israeli army West Bank checkpoint.

Soldiers near Nablus dived behind concrete barricades and pointed their rifles at the teenager. In a scene captured on video tape, troops sent a robot carrying scissors to the youth, who then cut himself free of the bomb.

Israel said the teenager was sent to blow himself up among the soldiers, and the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades had claimed it had dispatched the youth. But by Thursday the group, affiliated with Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement, withdrew the claim when it became apparent Palestinians were deeply angered over the use of a 16-year-old to attack Israelis.

The group subsequently said Israel had staged the incident to discredit the militants.

The teenager's mother was in tears as she spoke of her anger.

``It is forbidden to send him to fight,'' Tamam Abdo said. ``He is young, he is small, he should be in school. Someone pressured him.

``If he was over 18, I wouldn't feel so angry ... then it is his decision,'' she said.

The young Abdo, who had been suspended from school for a week for playing childish pranks, became a main topic of street conversation in the West Bank on Thursday.

``We have to carry out serious attacks,'' said Sadia Abdel Rahman, 42. ``This is not a children's game. This is an embarrassment.''

Palestinian militants have killed 942 Israelis in more than 3 1/2 years of violence. During the same period, 2,762 Palestinians have been killed.

There was speculation militant groups might be turning to children to fool the Israelis, who primarily watch for adult attackers. Children are easily recruited, because fighting Israel is almost a rite of passage here, analysts and residents said.

``This is a society where the only way to prove yourself is to fight against the Israeli occupation. There are no sports, no games. The only game now is the occupation and the fight,'' said Samar Awad, 38, a Nablus resident.

In an interview with the Israeli newspaper Yediot Ahronot, Abdo said his classmates had bullied him for years, teasing the youngster because he was small for his age. Abdo said he wanted to go to paradise.

``A river of honey, a river of wine and 72 virgins. Since I have been studying Quran I know about the sweet life that waits there,'' the boy was quoted as saying.

``But when the soldiers stopped me, I didn't press the switch. I changed my mind. I didn't want to die anymore,'' he said. ``I'm sorry for what I did.''