In my opinion, if Alonso wins by a margin that's more than 7 points then shame on F1. Why should RedBull lose because they followed the rules, now i'm not saying the rule is right or wrong but it's the rule. Ferrari cheated. BTW I am a Mclaren Fan. Let's go Lewis!
This is already discussed in the Mosley thread. Oh and BTW what about McLaren's deliberate cheat at the Montreal GP which caused Lewis to run out of fuel on the circuit during qualifying, what about Jensen catching Lewis and Lewis asking the team if he was going to try to pass after a couple of attempts and they told him NO, and then strangely Jensen had to change his fuel mapping because all of a sudden the team found out that he was risking running out of fuel. I'm not supporting Ferrari with this case, because they very obviously cheated and should have had ALL points removed from that result, but McLaren DO use team orders, as do Red Bull (and they have been caught out because Mark wouldn't play number 2) they just do it more intelligently. But yes Alonso and Massa should loose the results from that race. Pete
I suppose that you mean "if Alonso wins by a margin that´s less than 7 points". You must not forget that Hamilton won his championship by a single point because Kovalainen let him pass at Hockenheim. He would probably have passed him anyways, but, why take silly risks? Just ask the slower driver in the other car to let pass. Team orders exist, they´re there, always have been, and probably always will be. So let it roll.
The problem is, if you disqualify Alonso and Massa, then you have to do the same to Hamilton and Vettel. Oh, and delete the 2007, 2008 and probably 2009 championships results, because there were team orders involved too. This farce of the "no-team-orders" has gone too far to keep it alive.
Let's start at the beginning. Cheating would be doing something against the rules. Red Bull coming up with a double diffuser was not cheating. Schumacher doing his drive-through penalty on his last lap was not cheating. Renaults mass damper was not cheating. As I recall, Lewis stopping on the track was not against the rules, and cannot be "cheating". Also, it's a very cynical view to assume it was planned. It was a very small amount of fuel we're talking, a kilo or two, perhaps? Not cheating. The claim of team orders due to the Button/Hamilton and Vettel/Webber incidents is ludicrous... because Button DID have a go at Lewis and Vettel DID have a go at Webber. The proof is in the pudding - because they went at it on track, there clearly cannot have been an order not to do that. To suggest otherwise is a self defeating argument.
After Button has a go and Lewis spoke to the team, Button backed off as he was told to reset his fuel settings. As for RedBull with the famous crash where Vettel took Webber out, Vettel was on a different fuel strategy so he would be able to pass Mark ... but nobody told Mark. So everybody on Vettel's side of the team were playing team orders but thankfully Mark told the team to stick it and since then they have not. Pete
If you really believe Ferrari cheated, then Renault also cheated when they ordered Petrov to shift up earlier in order to ensure he would finish. The rule stipulate that ANY teamorder which influences the raceresult is prohibited. Perhaps now you understand how idiotic and un-enforcable this rule is. It is solely made for the idiots that fail to understand that the teams have a right to protect their investment by maximazing their chances of succes. Yes, you read that correctly: idiots.
Besides, now there is all this talk out in the open about Massa being prepared to help Alonso if needed. Open discussions about whether or not Red Bull should or should not play all their cards on Webber. Suddenly it is ok. Absolutely no one is suggesting that this would be cheating. Wake up call: the rules haven't changed since Hockenheim. Alonso taking the title with less than a 7 points difference will certainly not be a shame for F1, it will simply be the evidence that they were right in informing Massa that Alonso was faster.
I still can't believe how people say there is a time where it is acceptable and time when it is not. In F1 EVERY point counts, from race 1 to race 19 or however many races in a season. The teams that are still in F1 put a whole lot of capital into the season, Toyota, BMW, Honda etc. weren't as committed. Team orders have been in the sport ever since it's inception, that's what makes it a TEAM sport. I do not support team orders merely because Ferrari doesn't hide it like the others, all teams can and do use them
Still a self defeating argument. If there were team orders at McLaren, Button would never have had a go at Lewis. It's illogical to think Button is bold enough to ignore the order not to try a move on Lewis, but not bold enough to ignore it when he was told to turn his engine down. You forget also that the only reason Button closed on Lewis is because Lewis was on save-fuel mode already. If people believe putting drivers on save-fuel move to artificially affect outcomes was the norm, then why was Lewis on save-fuel mode to begin with, if not to artificially let Button catch up? Except that doesn't fit with the pre-determined conspiracy theory that the team was using team orders, therefore it is discounted. Just as the fact that Button did have a go conflicts with the pre-determined conspiracy theory about team orders so that is also discounted. Unfortunately, when you consider the situation in an unbiased manner, it is clear that the teams (McLaren and Red Bull) were not using team orders. One must believe a series of unlikely and impossible things for it to be true, as well as to discount the plurality of evidence to the contrary. Same with Red Bull... if there were team orders, they would have had Webber supporting Vettel much earlier in the season when Vettel was further ahead. Mark is a pretty outspoken guy and if he had been told he was not chosen to be the WDC that year, it would have come out. Finally, the simple fact that until his screw up last race he was leading the WDC, shows that clearly he has not been relegated to #2 spot. Again, to believe team order were at play at Red Bull, one must put aside facts and logic and believe a series of implausible circumstances and also ignore all the facts and evidence to the contrary. Both very different from the Ferrari situation. Nobody considers them equal situations.
The FIA set the rule. The FIA has administered the punishment. Case closed. If you claim to respect the rule, respect the ruling. Move along, nothing to see here.
*shakes head* so you're saying if Alonso had TRIED to pass Massa and THEN Massa was told to fall back, all would have been ok?? *shakes head again* Button fought with LH and was then told to 'conserve'...that's team orders and (possibly) affects the race result. All Ferrari did differently was avoid the fight! I'm not particularly for or against them having done that, but your logic is flawed.
For a moment when i read the thread title. I thought this was going to be about the FIA bending/breaking its own rules by allowing Ferrari to fettel there weak engines at the begining of this season But of course we have forgotten that now were so late on in the season.
who's 'we'? just because it's not mentioned doesn't mean it's forgotten. it's not the first time engine changes have been permitted you know.
If Alonso wins, the people who will have shame on them are Team Red Bull and Lewis Hamilton. Ferrari was dead and buried half way through the season. No trickery made them come back to be in the current driver's seat for the WDC. Hard work, a little luck, on some poor decision making by their competitors have left the door open for Alonso to win.
Its why they run all the races. At the end of the season the guy with the most points is the one who "deserves" the championship. No excuses.
Then if Red Bull wins, then shame on them and F1 because they cheated as well...Flexible front wings and floor boards ring a bell? Dumb thread. Ferrari(Massa) made a mistake by making it so obvious. Period. I'm not a huge fan of team orders, but it is part of the sport and it doesn't ruin my race or year, for that matter. I don't like Alonso, but if he wins the title, he will definately be deserving. He has a couple of awesome drives(Singapore and Korea particularly). Alex
When you think about it Ferrari is the only team with a clean slate. They've been caught and paid the price. Something none of the other teams can say.
No, I am saying there were no team orders at play at McLaren or Red Bull - clearly so - because if there were, Vettel wouldn't have had a go at Webber (or Webber would have just let him by) and the same at McLaren. "avoiding the fight" is exactly the difference between team orders and no team orders.
How do you figure Red Bull was using flexible wings and floor boards? The cars were checked numerous times and found to be legal. As for "no fan of team orders but they are part of the sport". So is testing... presumably it would be OK for Red Bull to secretly test as much as they like next year, because while illegal and cheating, it's part of the sport and forgiveable
