If Hamilton didn't win his first title to date. **Spoilers**

I find it hard to believe you blame him for qualifying on pole all year long.

If Vettel didn't qualify as well as he does, his year would have been a whole lot different.

Is it really his fault that no one can beat him in quali?

 

I'm a huge Vettel fan and think his talent is immense. However I also think he lacks some basic race craft which is a symptom of many young guns who didn't get enough practice coming up the ranks. Vettel has insane speed and car control and wins easily from pole. OTOH he has often made mistakes in midfield traffic.

 

I totally agree. But, I can't fault the boring races on the fact that he qualifies so well. Until someone knocks him off his game, you can't say he's not one of the best.

This was an "easy" year for him. But, how many times have we seen good drivers make stupid mistakes and screw things up? Vettel has been able to avoid most of that in two years.

Let's give the kid some credit. If it were that easy, everyone would do it.

 

The stewards were wrong today, without doubt. Hamilton was not on the racing line, hence the clouds of dust behind him as he went towards the side of massa. Massa had taken the same swinging race line every lap before, and Hamilton had seen that line at close range the previous lap. In the post race interview, Hamilton admitted he tried to back out of the move as he knew he wouldn't have the room....... not the words of someone who strongly felt he had the right of way!

After the crash, hamilton, when trying to pass other cars, did not even attempt to travel through turn 5 near them, even though, if he felt he was justified against massa, he should not have had any concerns IF the line was his to take. It clearly wasn't and he knew it

To all those who think massa should have backed out and let him through - exactly where was massa to go, straight off, slow down, let him through then carry on behind him? What for, he was on the racing line, in an evenly matched car.

Hamiltons head is not there these days, he needs a break, and I don't think he needs to race again this year, he is a big off waiting to happen

 

Agreed on that.

 

When has LH won a race from 6th of 8th on the grid. Never.

I don't want to bash LH, as I think he is doing well enough at undoing his career (compare Button's perfect race and actually pushing Vettel to LH squandering the same car many places further back), but where did this belief that he was able to do similar to what MS used to do and take race wins from poor grid positions come from? I do not believe this has ever actually happened.

Pete

 

Probably true. Stoner is methodically determined to win every race, and is a perfectionist. He can run on the ragged edge throughout a race and never put a wheel wrong (now that he is on the Honda). He has fought his way back after poor starts, though, and more than once. Stoner is still maturing as a rider. Like Ben Spies said at the beginning of the season when asked what worried him most about the 2011 MotoGP season: "Stoner on a Honda".

Pretty much.

 

When was the last mistake he made in your opinion in midfield traffic?

And I am not asking to be a jerk. I would agree last year he made some(many) stupid mistakes with passes. However he is still very young, and at that time still was trying to prove himself. That added pressure clearly makes drivers overly agressive (something I feel Hamilton suffers from).

This year Vettel has been found in the midfield a couple times and IMO has handled it better than most which has allowed him to maximize points throughout the season (something webber has not done).

 

The blatant ones stand out in my memory: Like in his debut at the US GP or the one in the rain at Fuji (behind the pace car) or last year at Spa driving into a McLaren.

You can certainly chaulk it up to lack of experience (which was precisely my original comment) and there is a chance he'll get better as the years go by.

I wasn't knocking Vettel (as I said, I'm a huge fan) but his victories are basically all from the front and once he gets into the midfield fights he can end up with a broken car.

To me that is the key difference to Alonso, who is also insanely fast but knows how to fight through a field. Despite his young age. That's why I consider Alonso the more complete driver. However that's an academic point as ultimately the combo of superfast driver + best car wins titles over the combo of best allround driver + average car.

 

I come from a sailing background, so I believe that the rules should be more akin to the rules of sailing. Hamilton had inside overlap coming into the corner, and had room. Massa, knowing that Hamilton was there, chose to turn right into Hamilton, even though he was alongside him at the time. Massa should have gone a little bit wider and taken the inside at the next corner.

 

+1

Not that I know anything about sailing but having done Skippy and lots of go kart races. If I had pulled the move Massa did during a gokart race, they would have black flagged me. No ifs and buts.

 

Seb gave wins to Button in Canada and one other race (Hungary) by brain-farting under pressure (in changing conditions) but that's been about it. He almost screwed the pooch in Suzuka, but he didn't so it doesn't count.

He still gets the red mist when someone's in front of him though (as rare as that was this season)

 

Good Lord!, it appears that you are correct Sir, having checked Hamilton's statistics (which I confess I hadn't done originally - a fatal mistake on this site!), I have to admit that Hamilton is actually no where near as good as I was giving him credit for!

His statistics show that if he hasn't qualified in the top four then he's useless at winning races!.

I apologise to all for talking up Hamilton's ability to win races from any grid position and shall endeavour to hold him in a much lower esteem in future!

 

Don't get Me wrong, I rate Vettel highly and as Tifosi12 has said, he's got incredible natural speed (especially on cold tyres in the first couple of laps when everyone else is still tip toeing around trying to find some grip), and no, it's not his fault that the rest can't keep up, but this means that we have no idea how he is under pressure, that's when the mistakes might well come.

As it stands this season, for Me at least, once Vettel has got into the lead and then got his 4~5 second gap by lap two it's game over for the win so the entertainment is in the battle for 2nd; 3rd; 4th places.
(BTW, I'm probably the worlds biggest hypocrite in saying this as I used to love it when Schumacher was doing the exact same thing in the Ferrari!)


I think once Hamilton gets his mind 100% back on racing and if Ferrari and McLaren get there cars working properly from the start of the season, then we'll be able to judge Vettel's racing ability (and not just his speed), a lot better.

 

But they're not...

Strongly disagree and my observation is supported by video...LH was never alongside and DID NOT have the room or the racing line

Strongly and completely disagree... Massa may have seen LH make his ill considered move and desperately dive in (where LH knew better) and also saw him drop back suddenly when LH hit the brakes hard. IMO, LH absolutely knew he was wrong, that he was not on the racing line and could not make the turn, from that position at anything close to that speed, without hitting or forcing Massa off track on the exit...like Monaco.

The stewards clearly made the wrong call...

The following tally might be expected of Yuji Ide or Taki Inoue
LH so far this season...
Malaysian GP: Picks up drive-through penalty for making more than one change of direction to defend position and unsuitable driving (1)
Monaco GP: Given two drive-through penalties for clashes with Pastor Maldonado and Felipe Massa (2 & 3)
Canadian GP: Collides with Mark Webber and team-mate Jenson Button, the latter incident forcing him to retire (4 & 5)
Hungarian GP : He sent Paul di Resta onto the grass and received a drive-through penalty
Belgian GP: Bangs wheels with Maldonado in qualifying, then hits Kamui Kobayashi in the race, sending his McLaren flying into the barrier (6 & 7)
Singapore GP: Has minor brush with Massa in qualifying before colliding with the Brazilian in the race (8 & 9)
India GP: Assessed a start grid penalty for ignoring a yellow flag in qualifying, then Collides with Massa in turn five, with Massa wrongly given a drive-through (10 & 11)

2010:
Australian GP: collides with Mark Webber
Malaysian GP: given a warning during the race, after he weaved four times to prevent Petrov passing
Italian GP: involved in a pit lane incident with Red Bull driver Sebastian Vettel
Singapore GP: crashed with Mark Webber

 

FWIW I believe Massa was at fault here, but feel free to agree

 

So... you disagree with Hamilton. Interesting. ☺

 

IMO Massa turned in to Lewis knowing he was there? but that is my opinion you are all entitled to you're own

 

It's all OK Steve, I was just ribbing you, with Lewis' own comment. We've all got opinions....

 

LOL you mongrel

 

+2 Enough said right here ^

I have raced a lot of karts and won, I also learnt the hard way, Andreas you are spot on.

 

Massa knowingly turned into Lewis when he did not have to. Pretty sure that's the definition of causing an avoidable collision...

 

Hamilton is as described by me on this forum years ago, a flash in the pan champion, when others here were already proclaiming him better than Schumacher, and trying to decide if it was 5, 6 , or 7 titles he was going to win. As predicted nothing doing. He is quick as hell when he wants to be, and is an excellent qualifier, but lacks the maturity and decision making abilities to be a multiple world champion. Compare Seb, or Jenson's racecraft to Hamilton's and enough said. When given a fast car he is sometimes effective, but lacks the ability and talents to be the whole package in the way of developing a car, and building a team around him the way Michael was, and seemingly Seb has done. For the record Massa definately chopped off Hamilton....bad blood there.

 

The following tally might be expected of Yuji Ide or Taki Inoue
LH so far this season...
Malaysian GP: Picks up drive-through penalty for making more than one change of direction to defend position and unsuitable driving (1)
Monaco GP: Given two drive-through penalties for clashes with Pastor Maldonado and Felipe Massa (2 & 3)
Canadian GP: Collides with Mark Webber and team-mate Jenson Button, the latter incident forcing him to retire (4 & 5)
Hungarian GP : He sent Paul di Resta onto the grass and received a drive-through penalty
Belgian GP: Bangs wheels with Maldonado in qualifying, then hits Kamui Kobayashi in the race, sending his McLaren flying into the barrier (6 & 7)
Singapore GP: Has minor brush with Massa in qualifying before colliding with the Brazilian in the race (8 & 9)
India GP: Assessed a start grid penalty for ignoring a yellow flag in qualifying, then Collides with Massa in turn five, with Massa wrongly given a drive-through (10 & 11)

2010:
Australian GP: collides with Mark Webber
Malaysian GP: given a warning during the race, after he weaved four times to prevent Petrov passing
Italian GP: involved in a pit lane incident with Red Bull driver Sebastian Vettel
Singapore GP: crashed with Mark Webber[/QUOTE]

Nice recap by the way....

 

Show me one post where somebody said such a thing on here.