McL must have bottled LH's 'I don't know jack expression' + already shipping it >The fact that his team had Ferrari data contributed nothing towards his win. was LH driving his dad around the track? > He would have won the WDC if everything else had been the same but McLaren had no Ferrari data. You do equity trading too?
it seems a lot of you feel that McLaren wouldnt have won this year bar for having a tiny percentage of ferrari data in the hands of 1 team member who sent bits of it on to 2 others (and yes thats it - MC, FA & PDLR) the car design was set in stone months before MC got the SF info (as would be the case with any F1 car) you continually blame the entire team when its been shown that only 3 ppl from the staff participated in this activity - and you all seem to feel (as stated at the start of this thread) that they probably wouldnt have won but for this stolen data now of course thats your perogative (however correct or incorrect it may be) but please answer me this. why arent renault winning ? if 780 pages is enough to help MCL win, then why isnt 3 entire cd/dvd's of MCL data helping them i mean they were a championship winnin team last yr - so why with the addition of probably most (if not all) of the MCL car data are they not wiping the floor ? could it be that the data whilst slighlty useful isnt actually all that important ?
you should be embarrassed because he's wrong regurgitating incorrect data : illegal bodywork on the 99 car ... WRONG!!!! ffs, it's been posted on this site several times that it was proved legal and even had the FIA document posted, get over it, McL have cheated, you're bitter and twisted about it but you still got the drivers in the competition even though the team CHEATED the FIA , as the GOVERNING body, has every right to have an investigation into anything that is considered to be illegal, and as has been proved McL were CHEATING, get it , CHEATING, and for this they got a measly $100M fine and WCC points taken away but their drivers get to keep their points and continue to race which is so biased considering when other teams get caught using loopholes they lose races, points, etc, these guys were CAUGHT with their hands in the till and are still allowed to keep racing sorry, but the apologising for McL just doesn't stop even when they have been proved to be CHEATING this is not just about Ferrari, what about all the other teams that have lost points due to these CHEATS ? The drivers that have missed podiums ?
obviously the McL data is rubbish compared to the Ferrari data, why do you think they had it in the first place ??
Everyone in F1 cheats. Some are just better at getting away with it (read kissing Bernie and Max's asses)
Huh? So you think that without the Ferrari info, McLaren would be slower than Ferrari this year? You think there was a large and concerted effort within McLaren to dissect and utilize the Ferrari information and its all been kept a big secret from the FIA? And Hamilton didn't disclose it nor did Alonso (even though Alonso hates his team)???? Thats a stretch. There is nothing to back it up and it doesn't pass the reasonable-ness test, so quite frankly its a bunch of silly BS. And yes, its true, Hamilton would still be leading the WDC if McLaren had never laid a hand on the Ferrari data. It is precisely zero percent of what has put Hamilton where it is now.
Why are you such an angry man? You resort to insults EVERY SINGLE TIME. That and calling people trolls. Is that all you're armed with? In 1999, the Ferrari was measured after the last race with the same equipment that had been used for every race, and was found to be illegal. Ferraris own rep said ""We need to check the technical situation," he said. "We checked the parts, whether it confirmed to the rules. It is possible the manufacturer does not conform.". If their own guy is saying that... well... Then the FIA came out with "Having heard the explanation of the competitors' representative and the team's technical director and having heard the explanations of the FIA technical delegate and the team's acceptance that the bodywork did not conform, the stewards decide that neither car complies with Article 3.12.1 of the 1999 FIA FI technical regulations and therefore exclude both cars from the event. "The competitor's representative is reminded of his right to appeal." The appeal basically came down to the FIA saying the measuring equipment could have been used wrongly and in that case the difference in panel size would fall within tolerances and said it was inconclusive. Back in 1999 there was a massive blow-up over this situation. So, sorry, I am not wrong. The 1999 cars were DQed for illegal bodywork. During the appeal they just said that the tests done could have been inaccurate and the cars would therefore be within tolerance. Reports from people in the know were that they gained no advantage and it was such a commercialy bad situation that the FIA backed down. I agree with the Ferraris not being DQed for the year - it was the right decision. But don't kid yourself into thinking that the FIA is somehow out to get Ferrari - quite the opposite. Thats the facts - and I didn't even have to stoop to saying people who agree with you should be embarassed or that you dont know what you're talking about or that you're bitter and twisted. Gee imagine that? McLaren did not cheat in their design/production of the car. You can tell yourself a thousand times "they CHEATED CHEATS CHEATS CHEATS!". I can picture you frothing at the mouth behind your keyboard pounding away at the keys. Sorry, McLaren beat Ferrari this year ON THE TRACK. Ferrari won the WCC IN A MEETING. In my view, Hamilton definitely deserves the WDC because he earned it. He didnt earn it because there was Ferrari parts on his car. He earned it because the McLaren is a better engineered race car, and Hamilton drove it better than his teammate and the competition. Thats why he's the 2007 WDC and Ferrari are not. But you're free to keep reiterating "BUT THEY ARE CHEATS! CHEATS CHEATS CHEATS!". Then tell yourself that Ferrari would have won if it weren't for the CHEATER STINKERS AT MCCHEATER and RON THE CHEATER, etc. That doesn't change the reality of the situation, which is Hamilton will be the WDC, and it will have been decided on the track. And good for him - he deserves it.
I think it has more to do with whoever is leading. Renault were screwed when their mass damper setup was deemed illegal. It was a great innovation and a farce that it was ruled illegal mid-season. Utterly ridiculous, but did keep them from running away with the title. Same with McLaren this year. I'm surprised Hamilton did not get a penalty, but I guess since he's essentially already won, it was not going to help to "keep it competitive". I don't think all this came about to help Ferrari necessarily. But rather I think MS's 5 consecutive WDC's was seen as "enough is enough". I do think the FIA is much more heavy handed these days to winning teams than they ever were to Ferrari, but I think its because they are trying to improve the spectacle and I think that if Ferrari starts to dominate again in the future they will be subject to the same type of BS. And if/when it happens it will be interesting to watch people having virtual heart attacks on this forum when that happens.
Mike, I'm not angry , so I don't agree with everything you say so what ? YOU seem to be the one frothing, you do it everyday to anyone that opposes your views Your posts go on forever and because you type so much waffle you think you're right and everyone else is wrong. 99% of your posts are YOUR OPINION, and because you have an audience of Ferrari people who will bite at your trolling you seem to enjoy continual sniping at Ferrari and proclaiming McL are hard done by innocents. I know you to be a reasonable person from email but to continue the corporate McL line in a Ferrari forum is tantamount to trolling. And no matter how YOU want to dress it up they WERE caught CHEATING and paid for it, not to the extent they should have but they DID get a penalty, accept it, pointing the bone at other people's indiscretions is a poor man's defense. >>>The appeal basically came down to the FIA saying the measuring equipment could have been used wrongly and in that case the difference in panel size would fall within tolerances and said it was inconclusive. THEY WERE CLEARED , you're WRONG !!! if they weren't cleared show me the penalty they got ??
here's another one of your attacks on another FERRARI fan and all you have to support it is YOUR opinion .. means nothing, you can't prove ONE statement, it's all conjecture to provoke a fight .... therefore TROLL by definition
Of course McLaren was wrong.....but if you honestly believe that Ferrari hasn't gotten "favorable treatment" from Max and Bernie over the last few years, I want some of what you are smoking!
so what are you saying ? toe the ferrari party line or bugger off - seems to me that your comment itself is tantamount to trolling
I was going to leave it to Mike and moretti to duke it out, but as before I see that it is turning into bunch of you guys ganging on him. So here is what I have to say. You calling someone a troll can be considered a compliment. As for the McCheaters this season-they cheated, not according to me you and some F-chatters, but according to FIA. Whether they gained a lot from it and that is why they are winning or they didn't gain anything and they are just the best this season we would never know. Not now not in 100 years. The bottom line is that if they were found guilty there is absolutely no way their drivers should be allowed to race and score points. This is not about hating McLaren but about a half ass penalty, for a clear and proven braking of the rules, which was influenced by someones plan to fill in the void left by Schumacher for his personal financial interests. Not only both championships are tainted but also FIA and the sport. I don't dare to state it as a fact but it got to be close, considering that every pole on here indicates so and also what a lot of people ,who know more about F1 than all of us together, think about it.
I just get so sick of it. Anyone not straight-line Ferrari is a troll, right ? Wake up. This has become the Lewis Hamilton season like it or not. FIA , press ,audience can see it. Perhaps the greatest story in F1 in your lifetime. Like it or not. The reason is BECAUSE HE DESERVED AND EARNED IT ! Ferrari was given their bone OK ? Now sit back, relax and watch History unfold. All this debate is exactly the reason that Ferrari controls their press. All other teams will do so shortly then we will be left to take blind shots, not informed opinions, based on official press releases. Are you happy now ?
Ferrari was found this season to have an illegal underbody panel system. They have instituted obvious team orders. They have ignored FIA edicts. In essence THEY CHEAT. According to YOUR dictates they should be thrown out of contention this season, right ? RIGHT !? Change your diapers and grow up. Take the red tinted glasses off at the same time.
this is whats called an internet forum. its designed so that lots of ppl can talk to each other. please note the use by me of a smiley at the end of my comment - thats a well recognised internet thing, it indicates that the comment isnt totally serious or is tongue in cheek or a joke. still "trying" for the sarcasm i see. whilst i dont always often) agree with johns comments i do respect his opinions. you however garner no respect - all you do is talk cr*p. ah yes the FIA, that well known bastion of goodness, fairness and justice. its called an educated guess. obviously you need to be educated to manage them though. well they are allowed - so just shut up and deal with it. secret plans to fillt he void left by MS leaving, is this the plot for some bizarre film your planning ? youve gone from the sublime to the ridiculous now. by the way braking is what cars do - i think you mean breaking what are you dribbling about now ? surely you arent quite thick enough to think that polls on fchat will not be biased towards ferrari whatever the circumstances ????? as for the rest of that somewhat incoherent statemen,t i have to ask have you bothered to check up what other knowledgeable sources think about all this mess ? i just wondered as it doesnt seem to be what you think. one last thing, a pole isnt the same as a poll. now go back under your bridge or rock and quietly watch the farce 1 race thats about to start.
WOW. I'm blown away. All this hostility and anger. Let me make some statements, not opinions. a) my post was suggesting that they just shake hands and let it be, since there is no reason for crying over spilled milk. b) what I said is that all of a sudden you, as well as others are jumping all over a guy for having an open argument with someone, not you. c) that same "well known bastion of goodness, fairness and justice." FIA ialso the same FIA that did not punish Hamilton last week and the same guys who allowed the McCheaters drivers to continue when they should not have. I think all McCheater/Alonshole/Hamster fans should make them your heroes. d)If you have not heard the media, racers, press, officials and 100 000s of fans saying that MS left a void in F1 then apparently you are the one living under a bridge or a rock. Bernie, aka Lewis Hamilton's godfather and guardian angel has made statements that are waaayyy more ridiculous than sublime, basically saying that his golden boy is much more worthy WC than anyone else not based on driving but based on "what he is doing for the sport=his pocket. e)Yes I have checked what other "knowledgeable sources think about all this mess ?". Last I checked quite few people in the F1 high ranks think the same as what I stated. The drivers should not have been left racing. Now it is just my guess but in your silver polished brain your opinion + the british press > Briatore, Mosley, Ferrari, F-chat and few current F1 piloti. HA HA talking about living under a rock.
not at all Nick, this IS a Ferrari forum and as such you'd like to think it is populated with like minded people but some come in here to expound their views as if it was gospel and damn anyone that opposes their view. Sure I'm pro-Ferrari, it's a Ferrari forum, I don't want to listen to McL, Honda, Renault or whatever claptrap, if I did I'd go over there. I want to know what Ferrari are doing to win the race, had 21 years of very late nights watching major disappointments, remember Surtees, Lauda and Scheckter's WDC very well, was very upset with NL when he pulled out of the Fuji race to lose the WDC to JH but also respected his bravery in even getting out there to try, that race was even more atrocious than last weeks, you forget in the heat of the moment that the guy was near death only weeks earlier , ears burnt off and severe burns to a lot of his body Some people here are pissed off that they were backing McL to not get a penalty for cheating, and instead of having the good grace to "bugger off" they stay and continue to say "poor old McLaren" and RD is basically a good guy when we all know from reading the reports he is a lying toerag. Now Enzo Ferrari was a hard man and did some underhanded trickery (getting the 250GTO past the FIA was an example), was it right ? .... of course not, I would have loved to see how the old man would have handled this seasons shenanigans though
You are making 3 points and you are 3 times wrong. Now anyone please correct me if I am wrong, but Ferrari did not race a floor that was deemed illegal at the time they raced it. FIA clarified the rules and Ferrari changed it. When they used it it was not deemed illegal. That is 0 for one as they were also not even charged with anything. They have not ignored any official edicts as there is no written rule about having to start the race on full wets. They were send an e-mail which somehow they received after the race had started. FIA apologized about it and said that it is their fault. That is 0 for 2 as they, again were not even charged with anything. About team orders, they are part of F1 and officially Ferrari have not broken any rule That is 0 for 3 as they were not even investigated let alone charged with anything.
another with their facts backwards, the floor flexed the OPPOSITE way to the rule as stated, there was a clarification asked of Charlie Whiting from RD AFTER he had the information relayed to him from Stepney (RD called him a whistleblower ) CW says he gets about 10 of these requests per year and his ruling was that the floor is not allowed to flex either way thereby ruling the Ferrari flexing floor against the rules from that point, maybe some may remember the fans under the cars many years ago on a Tyrrell I think which was ruled against after a clarification of the rules.
im not, you seem to generate it in ppl thatd be a first. actually your post was after the fact - so no it wasnt do you understand how forums work ??? actually dont answer - its obvious you dont. you waded in with both feet to a situation that was not (despite your quote) a "bunch of ppl ganging up" on john i. Hamilton didnt do anything wrong last week - this has been confirmed by many ppl including the officials. ii. tell me how exaclty they could have banned any drivers after offering amnesty in exchange for information do you also support a ban for the renault team too ? get your facts straight before you jump into a debate. what ???? anyone interested in this sport for longer than 5 minutes has long learned that BE talks crap but i digress - your comment was that this whole thing has been manipulated (and i quote) "This is not about hating McLaren but about a half ass penalty, for a clear and proven braking of the rules, which was influenced by someones plan to fill in the void left by Schumacher for his personal financial interests. " now im no BE fan, but lets be realistic here - the man is worth over £3 Billion (thats $6+ billion USD) and is in his 80's - he doesnt need anymore £££ mosely - biased (his hatred for RD is well known) briatore - runs another team so biased ferrari - yes im sure they will be really good and unbiased. current pilots - yes they have no interest in a quicker team being banned do they. ive seen lots of knowledgeable (and unbiased) ppl interviewed and almost to a man they all said the penalty was TOO HARSH oh and the british press - they love to find a target to slate. so for them to heap praise on someone is pretty rare. another piece of sarcasm you didnt understand. lets drop this now, im too tired to deal with all your cr*p just try for everyones sake to stop making things up to back up your wild claims and then pretending theyre real
