I'm fed up with my 308's lack of AC!!

Nice job on this!

Would you be interested in selling some of the pieces you have sourced (edit: specifically the condensor and evaporator) so I can put something together without replacing the radiator? ... I don't know why I have such a hang up with that! You probably have spelled it out but is radiator replacement an absolute must?

Thanks for sharing.

cheers!

Sean

 

I have been using the sanden compressor for years and never had a problem ever. I have 512 Boxer in the shop right now getting the conversion done as well as a 328. Just go with it like it comes.

jfrazar

 

No, you can mount a different condensor in your car. It just depends on how/what you can do regarding making custom brackets or welding tabs/brackets onto your existing radiator to mount a new condensor.

I put a new 12x20 condensor on my car and welded tabs onto my radiator top/bottom to hold the new condensor. My AC guy help me set up a new system and decided that anything smaller would just not work as well with the Sanden compressor and new blower motor/fans. Evap stayed the same (new dryer and exp-valve as well). System blows ~43-deg and 2x the volume as the old system.

I really need to finish my "complete guide to 308 AC write up and post it".

 

" System blows ~43-deg and 2x the volume as the old system."

43 degrees at the vent at what outside temp at the condensor? You really need both figures to determine how well it's working. 43 deg air with a condenser (outside air) temp of 70 isn't very impressive. At 95 outside air, it's darned good. Of course, twice the volume of air through the evaporator is a huge improvement. If it can drop the temp 40 degrees from ambient compared to outside and deliver 2x the factory air volume, it should easily keep the cabin at 70 degrees (my personal goal for declaring a car ac unit "adequate.")

 

Sean you were my original inspiration for putting AC back in my car years ago. I bought all the stuff from your guy (Steve I think it was in Texas). I'm happy to hear about your continued success and upgrades ... yes you do need to finish you "complete guide"!!!!

Between you and chairpilots threads I'm getting tempted to have a go with the stock system again ... luv to beat a dead horse !

Can you provide some outside temps? Also are these blowers available from Steve? edit: also clarify if you're using R134 please

Thanks for sharing!

Sean

 

if it IS R134a, at that temp (below 50 deg F), that is a home run. Is that (43 deg F) temp traveling at say, 50 mph or standing still?

 

Steve came to the house and made the hose connections for me (forgot to tell I redid all hoses as well). Charge ports are now up front.

It was in April in Houston and it was ~90-deg and humid outside. Car was sitting still inside the garage and had only 1-fan going (did not have relay redone to switch on both fans at AC start up) but also had a small fan blowing into the front of the car. Pressures were all good on an R134 system.

I ran it a week ago and it was over 90 outside and humid as hell and the system cooled off the car nicely...I even turned the fan off full blast. Now if I could just get the air distributed better inside the car.... The real key is getting a better condensor up front. The old fin/tube design was "old tech" when it was installed in the car to begin with. The newer style condensor coils (multiple pass parallel flow IIRC) are so much better, and designed to work with R134.

Sean - yes, the new motor and blower fans are available from Steve. You'll have to remove and disassemble the EVAP coil and housing (there is a thread here somewhere on that), put in the new motor/fans in the old fan housing, reassemble everything and put it back into the car. FYI - it comes out real easy, getting back in...well, good luck with that and be sure you have a helper!

 

Sean is right. Get a helper!!! Especially to spot you in the spare tire well hole. I did mine alone and it took me over 2 hours to just set it in place before hooking up the lines. And I still did not get the rubber donut seal to the larger (top) duct tube to stay. I fear removing the master cylinder and vac booster may be necessary to properly seal it.

 

Thanks for the update Rob. I think you are right on with this route. Seeing your center lower vent upgrade I'm imagining the new box will be desgined to feed those large center vents most efficiently ... maybe you've figured out a location for a couple more vents perhaps but probably not necessary? I was surprised when I closed the center duct on the dash how much air was diverted to the left and right ducts AND the small "outer" left and right ducts. With the large blowers you are experimenting with you might find the air flow thru those vents becomes very good. It is just very important to make sure the flex hose going form the evap box to the center vent is on real tight so some pressure head can build up in the common plenum right there to feed the other vents.

I'd be happy to prototype something up for you if you're at that point.

Thanks for sharing!

Cheers,

Sean

 

what worked for me in my 308 qv 1985 gts is the following

I converted to the newer version of freon
I replace the original AC unit with a rebuilt unit
I put a freon charge each spring which lasts the season

regards
Jim C

 

I'm not sure I understand your phrase, "the newer version of Freon." Freon is a DuPont tradename for R12 (which they invented) so only R12 can be "Freon." Are you meaning you went to R134, the standard replacement for R12 (freon)?

Also, when you say it worked for you, what kind of temperatures are you talking about - outside/inside the car?

As I have mentioned before, I'm finding that what one person feels comfortable with temp-wise may be entirely different for another.

Frankly I would politely request that anybody who posts anything about how their ac unit is working include at a minimum the outside air temp and the center vent temp. Even better would be the outside air temp and the mid level cabin temp, whether it's sunny or cloudy, and the difference between stopped and moving.

I realize that's a lot of trouble but without some sort of measurement there's no way to really evaluate whether another person would be comfortable in the same cabin and therefore whether the work someone did on their unit would be worth the trouble to the next person.

 

How's this:
1986 328 gts, in Atlanta avg ambient temp 90F very humid 76%

car running Freeze 12 - with about 32Lb on low side at 2500RPM, center top dash vent temp - wait for it - 43F!!!! went as low as 39F but stablized at 48F

center vents down under dash ( by gear knob ) 42-46F.

this was outside with only the evap fan on. once driving and up engine up to temp and rad fan going temp at vents were still 48-49F.

only after about 40 min, and in traffic did the temps at the vent go up - to 54F! at idle.

the big issue i see is the volume of air put out by the fan. dont know if its possible to fit a larger more powerfull fan, but the air is cold!

 

Sounds good!

Yeah the air volume is the big issue. As has been pointed out, you could have really cold air at the vent but if not all that much air is moving, it may not cool the cabin all that well.

My 328 with Duracool can do 38 at the vents while cruising under the exact same WX conditions that my wife's S500 MB only produces around 48-50 at the vents BUT her car's system probably moves 4 times the air volume and directs it all through the cabin so it's much cooler in the car.

 

OK, spirit, that IS good, any way you look at it. And, you are using Freeze 12, which (you probably know) is mostly R134a (the new-NEW freon(???) LOL

Anyway, missing juuuust one thing- high side psi, for the record. Good to know.

 

Too much, Mike.....38 deg F?? (Duracool is mostly propane, the NOT new freon). I am jealous of that 38 deg temp.......Dang.

 

Has anyone used the RedTek12A or the R414B as a drop in substitute for the R12 system?

I recently used the 414B in my 1988 Porsche Carrera and it seems to be working fine. Outside temp 86 with low humidity and a vent reading of 49degrees standing still, after a short drive the reading dropped to 45 degrees.

Any ideas if this has or will work in the 328 as I am considering it for my 88 328 GTS?

Mike

 

I would also like to add another request to the multi temp readings. How about photos showing where your sensor bulb is located. Mine is located down in the evap chamber clipped to the larger low pressure "out" tube. Once I charge the system and take readings, I'll post mine too.

Bob

 

neat thread.

Joe and his mechanic Corbin Burnsed have done several 308's, including a few of mine. My latest 328 has ice cold a/c 3 months after the rotary compressor swap with no issues.

I just dont see a need to expend so much time and effort on a system that can and does work "good enough" for a 24+ year old car, in my case.

I also would not want to buy a heavily modified Ferrari. A York to Sanden rotary compressor swap is not near as invasive or a permanent as some of this other work.


But to each his own, still a very cool thread to read.

 

Which is why upgrading the blower/fans is so important on the evap side. Converting to R134 will really accompish nothing (and likely make things a little worse) if you leave everything else alone.

The Sanden 7-stage rotary will help, but again, you plugging a square peg (R134a) into a round hole (R12). R134 and R12 systems are designed to operate at different pressures and temperatures.

NOTE: The new Sanden is the same model Sanyo that was installed in EURO 328's. From what I can tell, the Sanyo unit/division was bought by Sanden, that or it's made under license b/c they are basically the same unit.

 

My son is a mechanic who works at an independent shop on all kinds of cars. He's the shop's resident A/C expert. The York compressor in the Ferrari is more than strong enough to handle systems twice as large in capacity (like my old Ford F250 crewcab). The issue might only be weight and efficiency going with a Sanyo/Sanden or other unit. I say why bother the expense and hassle changing all the bracketry, etc. for a different compressor if cooling is the only issue?!?!
My plan right now is getting the STOCK system back to OEM condition (as good as "new") as a base line then worry about upgrades - if I even need any.
Granted, Italians were quirky back then with the 308. BUT, to their credit, they did create the 308!!!!

 

Bob, great point. I think I read on FChat the rotary compressor uses less than 3 horsepower under full load while a piston / York style uses 13. When I turn on my a/c , i do NOT get that "bog" feeling from the car. Car pulls to redline with no issues.

I guess for folks who keep their cars the work to refine the whole system may be worth it. To me, not so much.

Just FYI.

 

"Bob, great point. I think I read on FChat the rotary compressor uses less than 3 horsepower under full load while a piston / York style uses 13."

Well, if you read it on FChat, it MUST be true...

Out of curiosity I checked 5 other sites and everyone of them said something different re the HP draw of the York - as low as 5, as high as 20. BUT nobody that I could find has simply put a car on a dyno and checked. Same was true of the Sanden - just claims, no tests.

IN any case, a rotary compressor is smoother and quieter and I'd rather have one than the York just for that purpose. But the York can out out-pump the Sanden as far as moving refrigerant so there is no AC performance advantage in replacing a York that is in good condition.

Most of the US cars I owned that had Yorks had a full throttle switch that disengaged the compressor at WOT. I have never noticed if the 328 has one or not but I easily managed to hit the rev limiter on my 328 recently with the ac on so the old York either was disengaged at WOT or it didn't really bother things all that much!

 

well, has anyone checked their expansion valve sensor bulb location lately? I'm still curious as to what variations are out there and their associated AC performance characteristics.

Bob R.