News

In-period vs. Non-period Rebodies

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by El Wayne, Nov 14, 2012.

?

What is the cut-off for rebodied cars discussed in this forum?

  1. Absolutely no discussion here of cars without original coachwork or coachwork that appears as origin

  2. Only allow discussion of factory-sanctioned rebodies

  3. Only allow discussion of cars rebodied within 3 years of construction

  4. Only allow discussion of cars rebodied within 5 years of construction

  5. Only allow discussion of cars rebodied within 10 years of construction

  6. Only allow discussion of cars rebodied prior to 1980

  7. Allow discussion of all rebodied cars that are not replicas or "recreations" of other models

  8. Other (please explain below)

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. jsa330

    jsa330 F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 31, 2003
    9,376
    predestined
    Full Name:
    Scott
    The poll choices bring to mind a 4th century ecclesiastical conference debating on what's too unholy to allow.

    As far as I'm concerned, anything to do with Ferrari-based recreations/abominations/desecrations is fair game for discussion here.
     
  2. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
    Global Moderator Owner

    Aug 1, 2002
    17,933
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    L. Wayne Ausbrooks
    :);)
     
  3. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Nov 11, 2003
    3,180
    These are all just funny names in attempt to smooth out the word "FAKE" by making it sound like something else.

    So it looks like Felbers stay and Daytonas with modified plexi covers are moved. Heh, that can happen when you rely on internet democracy.
     
  4. TurboTerrificNo9

    Sep 24, 2011
    49
    UK
    This is a great comment.

    I find it hilarious that there is a thread discussing what is 'worthy' of inclusion.

    There are so many variables involved, to restrict will ultimately just dumb down the discussion.
     
  5. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
    Global Moderator Owner

    Aug 1, 2002
    17,933
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    L. Wayne Ausbrooks
    :):);)
     
  6. open roads

    open roads F1 Rookie

    Jan 28, 2007
    3,709
    Sarasota, Fl.
    Full Name:
    Stan
    #31 open roads, Nov 16, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2012
    I don't take offense at any of the disparaging coments and/or name calling. Thus a 250 GTO rebodied as a Series II GTO is AFAIK a "fake" Series II GTO. I simply just don't care to fight a fight that is impossible for me to win. I'm more into positives.

    On the other hand, I am entirely ready to defend the honor of those poor mindless autos that are said to be trying to be something they are not. How in the world can a poor innocent mindless and mangled car have an "intent"? That's simply going too far IMO. The car itself should not be criticized this way.

    Further, I have heard owners of said autos commented upon in a fashion that incenuates that the detractor has some personal knowledge as to what the owner being lambasted has intended or in some way is planning to decieve. Not that the owner simply wants to have anything like "personal property rights". In almost every one of these instances I would say that the attackers have no such knowledge.

    There will be inevitable exceptions. There are so many cars.

    I say three years.
     
  7. Daytonafan

    Daytonafan F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 18, 2003
    2,582
    Surrey, England
    Full Name:
    Matthew
    I don't feel Daytona Spyder conversions they are rebodies nor do I feel that Daytona's converted recently to Group IV spec are rebodies either IMHO.
     
  8. Playframe King

    Playframe King Formula Junior

    Jan 31, 2010
    320
    UK
    #33 Playframe King, Nov 17, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2012
    Perhaps I have too loose a grasp of the English language....haha
    Original - as delivered
    rebody = take whole body off and replace with another
    Convert / modify- make changes to existing, but original remains to some extent (debate percentage of existing remaining at this point...?.)
    Replica / recreate/ fake - make something which LOOKs like an something else (not necessarily sound like, handle like, perform like, etc etc but can do if desired, may or may not include some original parts

    So original is Ferrari section, rebody and conversions are sub section(s) (could even have 2 sub sub section of rebody - period, and nonperiod?) ,
    replica fake - on its own, NOT under Ferrari

    So guess I poll to allow discussion of rebodies - but not replicas or fakes in this section

    .02c
     
  9. Enigma Racing

    Enigma Racing Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 1, 2008
    1,109
    London
    Full Name:
    Kim
    I love this website.

    Principally, for the wealth of knowledge and information provided by the subscribers. I am constantly amazed by the ability of the subscribers to identify vintage ferraris and answer questions.

    Secondly for the entertainment from reading members views on what is and isn't a Ferrari, how the owner should use it and where it should be discussed.

    This somewhat obsessive quest to define categories I believe is unique to the marque as well as being a reflection of a developing attitude of Classische/Ferrari. The Bentley Owners Club (the most welcoming car club in my opinion) see the cars in one pot, Vintage. A very large proportion of vintage Bentleys are unoriginal, specials or a replica built from a later car but they are all universally accepted as fundamentaly being a Bentley. Can we not do the same ?

    I say, forget about classifications and put everything in one section and leave it to the intelligence of the subscribers to form their own view

    I have contributed to this discussion simply to highlight the problem of definitions and believe that "one size can be made to fit all". We do not need to create a multitude of sections to cater for the wide variation of cars and intentions. Personally, I think it is nonsence to suggest that a series 1 GTO rebodied as a series 2 is a recreation. Equally that a vintage Daytona should be consigned to being a "replica" or "recreation" because it has been chopped in period.

    The only reason to have a separate sub section for "Recreations and Non period rebodies" is to improve the quality of discussion in both sections and avoid the seemingly endless and inevitable decent into lectures and opinions about butchering cars and the morality of their owners. If this was truly the original objective then we have not got there yet.

    Kim
     
  10. Playframe King

    Playframe King Formula Junior

    Jan 31, 2010
    320
    UK
    Pleased you appreciate categorisation irony Kim
     
  11. MarkL

    MarkL Karting
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Nov 3, 2003
    174
    Really?

    What this discussion seems to be about is desirability. *Everyone wants the time capsule, perfect, original car. You know, the one with great paint, the best colors, been untouched by anyone since it left the factory. Just needs a bit of polish to win Pebble. Right next to it is the sister car that won not only LeMans but the Mille Miglia. Got parked right after finishing it's last race, *pretty sure that was Phil Hill piloting. He left his helmet on the passenger seat.

    Now every other car out there will fall short of these two and will be desired less because they are less "perfect".The question being asked is how far down the list do you go before a car is so imperfect, so undesirable, *that it is no longer worth consideration on Ferrari-chat.

    Really?

    Shouldn't we be looking to preserve the history of our cars and celebrating that *connection to history, even if it is somewhat*imperfect? I'm pretty sure it's the history thing that draws us here in the first place. We become part of that history as owners and we have an obligation to be honest stewards. Beyond that we can not change what was. *


    No matter how badly Classiche (and others) *want all Ferrari to return to their as born "original" condition, the car's history will not change nor will it's *desirability. *All that is accomplished when a new "original" motor is built, or a new "original" body is fabricated, is add another layer to an already imperfect past.

    Maybe instead of Vintage *we should just call it " cars worth over $$$"
    and be done with the pleasantries.

    -M
     
  12. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
    Global Moderator Owner

    Aug 1, 2002
    17,933
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    L. Wayne Ausbrooks
    Now we're getting somewhere.
     
  13. Enigma Racing

    Enigma Racing Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 1, 2008
    1,109
    London
    Full Name:
    Kim
    Spot on.

    A good start. Concours judging focused on unrestored. Patina not perfection.
     
  14. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
    4,267
    Cape Town, South Afr
    Full Name:
    Jack Verschuur
    Whilst I agree with this sentiment, it is IMO outside the scope of the discussion at hand.

    If there is this much need to categorise, why not follow the lead of Classiche rather than trying to re-invent the wheel? I know it is far from perfect, but it at least gives some degree of clarity.

    The issue is way too complex to deal with, we'd need 10 categories.

    The Bentley-world is a good example of simplifying things, another is the De Tomaso scene (although older cars are also moving towards originality these days)
     
  15. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
    Global Moderator Owner

    Aug 1, 2002
    17,933
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    L. Wayne Ausbrooks
    Or perhaps none?
     
  16. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Honorary

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    As an aside the only current market for fakes (Re-bodied cars with bodies of models they never were) if the guys producing them in Modena are to be believed are for fake Calif Spyders that are used in Monte Carlo and the South of France during the Summer. Fake 250 GTO's sit unwanted and they haven't cut a real 275 GTB into a fake 275 GTB NART or a real Daytona into a Fake Daytona spyder in years.

    This particular shop is by no means hidden away and the Factory has been aware of it for years and knows exactly what they have done and continue to do.

    The number of unsold fake 250 GTO's that sit unsold month after month in FML speaks for itself.
     
  17. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
    Global Moderator Owner

    Aug 1, 2002
    17,933
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    L. Wayne Ausbrooks
    Interesting to note. I'm sure these cars suffer from the stigma of owning a "fake" and the questions/hounding that accompanies this. As well, there are some limits to the events in which they are allowed to participate.

    That said, are we to assume that the lack of demand for these cars means that discussion of them should be relegated to a separate subforum, or is there another reason for the majority here wanting to separate them from cars that they feel make for more worthy topics?
     
  18. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Honorary

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    #43 Napolis, Nov 20, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    There still is demand for the fake Calif. Spyders. The demand isn't from people who want to bring them to any event but simply want to park them in front of their yacht, restaurant du jour, disco, or topless beach and not worry about getting sand on the carpets and sunscreen on the seats.

    The last time a real Cal Spyder was parked in the sand at Club 55 BB looked like this instead of how she does today...

    I think there are already sub forums for non Ferrari content fakes and Ferrari content fakes.

    I also think Rebodies that aren't faking something they're not belong in correct time period forums.

    The Specific car that started this questioning isn't one I like visually but it's clearly not trying to fake something it's not.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  19. 180 Out

    180 Out Formula Junior

    Jan 4, 2012
    995
    Albany CA (near SF)
    Full Name:
    Bill Henley
    Where do you get a rebody like Bardot's "Before" picture?
     
  20. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Honorary

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    You have to go back in time, Drive a real Cal Spyder like Rodger did to Club 55, walk out onto the sand and when you spot one say something pithy like:

    "You should be in Pictures."
     
  21. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
    BANNED

    Nov 19, 2008
    6,456
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
    #46 miurasv, Nov 20, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  22. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Honorary

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
  23. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
    BANNED

    Nov 19, 2008
    6,456
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
  24. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
    Global Moderator Owner

    Aug 1, 2002
    17,933
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    L. Wayne Ausbrooks
    Yes, one of the previous owners of this car posts in this forum from time to time and has brought this car up in two previous threads discussing the separate "rebodies" forum, yet no one responded to his questions.

    This car is an excellent example of a "period rebody" that looks like something that it is not. Under the current arrangement where we separate discussion on cars that were rebodied "not in period" (whereever the boundaries of that may lie), discussion of this car would most likely belong here. If we were to separate discussion on cars based not on when they were rebodied, but on what they were rebodied to look like, it would not.

    Who doesn't agree that it would be sad to say that the discussion of cars such as 0627 GT, 0147 E, 0716 TR, 0402 AM, 2819 GT, and so many others like them should be separated out from the general area of "vintage" Ferraris and relegated to a subforum for "fakes?" Why do we feel that way?

    According to the results of the poll above, 0402 AM and 2819 GT would be safe, but the others would still be categorized as belonging to some sort of lower class.

    At the same time, you have the Felber cars that were not created to look like anything that they are not, yet are somehow still not discussion-worthy because they are unattractive to the eye.
     
  25. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
    Global Moderator Owner

    Aug 1, 2002
    17,933
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    L. Wayne Ausbrooks

Share This Page