Indy Car series vs F1

One thing I discovered last night was Indy car pole was 15 seconds off Lewis Hamilton's qualifying last year, so the cars alot slower. Not that that matters much.

 

I believe that Indycar has unassisted steering. Kubica would struggle with it.

 

^^ I absolutely agree. If the racing is good, does anyone really care if they're slower than an F1 car if it's wheel to wheel racing, with the potential for up to 5-7 different winners each race?

I wouldn't care if F1 cars were all 10 seconds slower in 2020 than they are in 2019 if it meant we could see Ferrari, Mercedes, Redbull, Renault, McLaren, and Racing Point all fighting for wins throughout the year, with the others still providing a good mid/backfield fight.



Of course, maybe they're thinking of switching to Indycar in the future and this is them casually dropping hints...

 

A true formula libre can't happen IMO. Engineers are too smart and we'd end up with 1 team getting it absolutely right and obliterating the field by huge margins. Also the speeds would be enormous and the series will end by 1 or several monumental crashes.

 

You must not watch Indy that often. They aren't on par with Formula 1 performance wise. They weigh more, have less horsepower, and have less aero. That said, they fairly consistently produce better racing with more action than Formula 1 does and race results aren't nearly as easy to predict. Right now I enjoy watching Indy more than I enjoy watching Formula 1.

 

Its sad what has happened to Indy Car. Tony George absolutely ruined Indy Car with the whole IRL crap. when the split happened Indy was right at F-1 levels of popularity - the cars were great, and drivers were top class. today its better but the whole IRL split put them back 20 years. they are a shadow of what they used to be, and sadly doubtful they will ever be as great again.

 

Yep. IndyCar is slowly coming back. Not sure it will ever reach it's previous glory, but this weekend at COTA was great fun nonetheless.

 

+1 At its peak CART was on par with F1.

 

Sounds just like Can-Am 1965-1974, and with the same result.

 

I see it differently, Tony George ruined CART, but saved Indycar.
Following its divorce with USAAC, CART was a series run by the teams, and it was losing momentum as the top open race series in the USA.
As Indy owner, George saw that, proposed some changes, and was snubbed by the teams.
He created IRL, a cheaper series around the jewel in the crown : Indy 500. .
Within a few years CART collapsed and the team begged to come racing at Indianapolis.
To me, Tony George was right.

 

Unless you know something different, I categorically disagree. from what I know - and this is from people like Roger Penske, Chip Ganassi & Bobby Rahal that George wanted USAC to replace CART as the sanctioning body & commercial direction much like FOCA had been doing in F-1. George saw that it should be Indy CART Championship by USAC. As the Hulman family was heavily influential with USAC.... and that USAC should run all the commercial & TV rights making it a package that could be sold internationally with exclusive American TV rights held by ... George & Hulman family. It was a stupid power play by George who saw the prestige of the Indy 500 slowly being diminished vs. the growth of CART teams. The split also allowed "lesser teams" to move to a category and seek parity with or replace the big teams. CART had built the championship beyond what USAC did - or had vision of doing. USAC was ultimately a dinosaur that did what ever the 500 & George family wanted. As for the top race series in the USA - I would say that it was starting to really rival F-1 as it attracted Mansell in 93, and became a spot for ex F-1 drivers & team members to seek refuge after falling out of F-1. there were races in Austrailia, Japan, Mexico, Brazil, England, and Germany... more were planned until the spilt. Ecclestone clearly influenced George.. and to his benefit. What came after was the fall of CART- as owners started to vie for sponsors that started to leave as TV coverage was splintered, and virtually disappeared. I've been to a couple of IRL races - cars were hideous, almost no known drivers, and boring racing. same for CART races... what George did is divide... but he failed to conquer, and set back US Racing at the highest level for a generation.

 

Bollocks.

+1 you got it right Tom.

 

as it was happening I didn't realize the lasting damage being done. But you are correct. 20+ years later we see IndyCar finally coming back. I really hope it lasts. This last weekend's experience was good, but the COTA stands definitely not packed like the F1 race. My anecdotal evidence had the average fan knowledge a bit lacking, but perhaps on an upward trend? Maybe the Stadium Super Trucks getting second billing on Raceday isn't a bad idea to get more of us Ugly Americans in the door.

 

William, please don't feel like you're being ganged up here, but I also have to disagree with you. I think Tony George saw an opportunity to steal all the good things that CART had worked so hard to achieve. I think he and his Hoosier followers were jingoistic xenophobes. They saw guys like Emerson Fittipaldi and other "furriners" coming in and stealing the limelight for what used to be the property of the Midwestern circle track boys and they were resentful. Tony George's godfather, one AJ Foyt, Jr., was whispering in his ear that without the Indy 500, the CART series would be nothing. Ultimately, he was right. But, it took a HUGE amount of the George family fortune to finally beat down CART.

One could right a book about this tragedy (Has one been written? Hello . . . .Robin Miller . . ) but keep in mind that the demise of CART coincided with a questionable IPO, the withdrawal of cigarette sponsorship and the end of a tire war and the end of four competing and big spending engine manufacturers. Of course, on that last point, we could discuss what came first . . . the chicken or the egg.

 

There are differences of opinions on almost any subject.
USAC used to be the sanctioning body for the top open-wheel racing up to 1978, before the revolt of team owners.
Then, the team owners decided to administer their own championship and formed CART.
Tony George, as Indianapolis Speedway owner, refused to join, and the Indy 500 were kept under USAC rules.
For a few years, CART teams could compete at Indy, until Tony George decided to launch his own IRL series (under USAC) around different technical rules, apparently to make racing cheaper.
Many sponsors started to support the IRL rather than CART, simply because the Indy 500 gave them more exposure.
The CART teams had under-estimated the media pull of the Indy 500.
Slowly teams started to leave the CART series to join IRL (Penske, Ganassi, etc...), until CART became bankrupt in 2007.

The IRL is still alive with the main protagonists competing in this championship, like Penske, Ganassi, Foyt, etc ..., but CART is long gone.
The irony is that CART shareholders sealed its fate when they stopped supporting it and joined a rival championship.

 

What stole the thunder from open-Wheel racing in the US is the emergence of NASCAR, more than the rivalry between CART and IRL, I think.
But as the leading US racing series, NASCAR is not without his problems now.

 

Nascar's growth paralleled that of the growth of Cable TV, as did all forms of sport in the '80's and '90's. In the USA, back then at least, there was plenty of room for both.

 

I find myself watching IndyCar more than F1 now. Being on the west coast plays a part as I can actually watch the races live in IndyCar without having to wake up too early on my days off work.

The racing itself looks more exciting. The cars look more difficult to handle and more likely to have the back end go out. F1 cars look far too tame to drive and smooth...so many electronics and better grip among other factors.

 

If I was living in the States, I don't think I would be bothering with F1; Indycar is certainly a good substitute.
For me, the racing is more exciting and the results less predictable in Indycar.
Less drivers' aid, less "clever" technology, fixed aero and more "back to basics" stuff make it attractive for me.
Indycar is a drivers and teams series, not a constructors' championship.
I have to admit that I was against specs series in the past, but after watching Indycar and F2 races, I am a fan now.

 

I tend to watch both -- often on DVR, fast forwarding on the dull bits.
I started watching IndyCar when Mad Max was trying to turn F1 into a "spec" series.
I even finally got to understand oval tracks, a bit.

The COTA race didn't give me the impression that Indy cars were all alike.
The Ganassi cars seemed to be quicker than the field -- for two laps on fresh tires. Then they went well off the pace.
How does that happen with "spec" cars?

In both F1 and IndyCar, I get the impression that there are factors that don't show up in pure on-track racing.

While tire changes are faster than refueling in IndyCar, the pit crews do make a difference.
The front runners only seem to lose two or three spots on pit stops, while other lose 10 to 12 spots.

But I'll have to watch how many F1 cars manage to unbalance their tires by spinning the tires on the rims, leaving the pits -- after seeing Powers break his driveshaft in the pits.
(Older F1 tracks often had asphalt surfaces, but (slipperier) concrete pits. Lots of F1 drivers had trouble adapting to asphalt pits, a decade or so back.)

 

Never my intention to "gang up" on William... I have nothing but the highest respect for your opinions.

I think the view of what happened to Indy car CART PPG racing outside of the USA vs. inside is a bit different. back in the day Indy was a huge race - still is but at the time was losing its pre eminence as the whole championship was becoming bigger. the George / Hulman family were trying to protect their dominant position as the jewel of American Racing... but they did it in the worst way. NASCAR & Bill France seized upon the dissent to really drive NASCAR into the wedge, and it worked well for a time. most of the sponsors stayed / went to NASCAR where there was clear TV coverage, vs. CART / IRL where you never knew when it was going to be on TV. the lack of TV exposure for both drove open wheel series into the ground in the USA, and NASCAR and the ALMS series picked up the pieces. It's still my opinion that had both Tony George and CART come together and made a strong series - F-1 would be vastly different than it is today. CART was competing for the same racing venues at a much reduced cost basis, with racing that was better & more competitive, and was attracting more major car manufactures... ( Ford, GM, Chrysler, Mercedes, Alfa ( Fiat/ Ferrari) Ilmore, Honda & Toyota Porsche.... ) could all have been competing happily at a much reduced cost. It is true that the team owners sought to "one up" each other, but with out a rival series there would have been no other alternative but to stay and compete in CART - or move to F-1. Indy car today lacks known drivers - and known car manufactures.... the spec series nature is ok, but there is little technical innovation that makes the cars unique... this is why F-1 still has a clear edge over other open wheel series.

 

Thanks for your comments. Obviously here in Europe, I never had all the information you have in the States, so maybe I was a bit hasty in my opinion.

The way I saw it is this:
A bunch of investors decide to form company A where they all have a stake, create the rules, direct the operations, and share the profits.
But the owner of the best location on their market refuses to join, although he allows them to use.it for a while.
Within a few years, the owner of the best location decides to set up his own rival company B, to operate on the same market.
A and B are now competitors in the same arena.
Company B establishes itself at huge cost, but after a while some investors in company A decide to switch their business to company B.
Company A suffers the loss of business and equity and finally collapses.
By then, most of the investors in company A have joined company B and accepted its rules.
Is that not what we see every day in business, with rival companies fighting each other?
From a purely business point of view, it would appear that the owner of company B was right, and saved the investors in company A, no?
I was simply thinking along these lines.
That's why it looked to me that the owner of company B has won the arm wrestling contest

Indycar is still the second best series in the world, IMO.
The specs series nature may be regretable, but just look where F1 is going in its arms race!
At least the US have a good national open-Wheel championship that doesn't exist anywhere else.

 

2021 F1 changes (very INDYCAR like). #AlexanderRossicomeback

This from Racecar Engineering. Project "INDIA" (might as well call it Project "INDY")-->ground effects, basic wings, wheel covers, no bargeboards.

Image Unavailable, Please Login

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

ALSO

latest iteration of F1's 2021 regulations

Image Unavailable, Please Login


Image Unavailable, Please Login

Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Yup, here is a video of Montoya qualifying at Detroit.