Injectors

I have acquired new injectors with bushings and sealing rings and will be posting my replacement effort after the next couple of months. If you are willing to wait, I may develop the insight you need. My initial guess is that I will need to fabricate a tool to remove the bushings and seals. This is unlike the simple replacement I did here for a bushing I knew would be easily removed:

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=290194&highlight=ebay

Changing the injectors should be simple as shown in the link. Just pull the pipe out as shown and replace the injector for each cylinder.

Several have experienced improvements in engine performance after replacing the injectors only.

To find them, investigate the sticky thread and order new ones from Autohaus.

 

Yes, just replacing them is easy, but you might find difficult to remove the two central ones below the butterfly assembly.
I did experience improvements in engine performance and smoother idle.

The injectors are Bosch part number 0 437 502 047 and upper o-ring - 3 430 210 606

You can read this thread too:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132818&highlight=tool+remove+injector

 

I had them replaced on my 87 at around 38k miles back in 2003 and noticed the car pulled harder and more smoothly above 5,000 rpm. The tech tested the old ones and said several had very poor spray patterns. The original Bosch ones were steel, the new Bosch ones are brass. You should have the CO adjusted (precat) after the injectors are replaced.

 

Can anyone recommend a good (read: reasonably priced) source for the injectors and O-rings?

 

I sell injectors bushings on ebay and have some experience with the fuel system. Rob has bought these bushings from me to install them on his car. When you want to improve the performance of you car the right functioning of the K jetronic system is very important. I checked the flow of all the injectors of my 400 i and all of them had a different flow. It looked that they had the same spray pattern but the flow varied between 195 cc to 290 cc in 2 minutes on my test device (full presure of a stand alone fuel pump with a adjustabel fuel pressure regulator on 5 bar). I was unhappy about the fuel pressure meters to test the K jetronic and build a set for my self. I offer these meters now on ebay. You can also build them yourself.

The performance will improve when you install new injectors for sure. If you adjust the fuel pressure to the right level and clean the fuel distributor this will also effect the performance. Attached you find two pictures of one of my fuel distributors of a 400i which has run 84.000 km. If the inside of your fuel distributor looks like this you now for sure that the performance can be improved. It is old fuel that became like a sponge and is removed very easy in a ultrasonic bath.

I don’t have the right figures for fuel pressure and control pressure on a 328. If you send a mail to me I can send the general k jetronic books as pdf. I now for sure that an other Ferrari chat member has the right figures for a 328.

geert jan
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Thanks Geert this is good to know. I've changed the injectors on my 328 with good improvement to performance but not checked the fuel distributor yet.

 

Wang
Next weekend I will finish the cleaning of the fuel distributors and install them on my 400 i. I will put the pictures on Ferrari chat later with some comments. The injector 0437 502 047 (the brass replacement injector for the 0437 502 010 steal injector) opens at 3,8 bar and had a flow of 240 cc in 2 minutes (fuel directly from the pump at 5 bar). I have the original Bosch list with al the injectors used in the 70ties and 80ties. The list only gives an opening pressure not a flow. (The opening pressure for the 010 injector is 3.6 bar and the 047 3.8 bar.) The list doesn’t give a flow of the injectors. This is strange because a lower flow will influence the power at higher speed. That’s why I checked the flow of a new injector and compared it with my own injectors. The spray pattern wasn’t causing the problems but the limited flow of some injectors. This can be caused by the injector or the fuel distributor. I cleaned the injectors in a ultrasonic bath first and tested them again. When the problem wasn’t completely solved I opened the fuel distributor and discovered all the dirt inside.

Fast is better
I order injectors from autohausaz.com for us dollar 21 for the 0437 502 047. Even cheaper than the local Mercedes store here. If anyone needs the o rings send a mail I have more than 100 of them. If you have a cracked injector bushing I have new replacement bushings as well.

Geert Jan

 

Geert Jan,

I am assuming you know what you are doing taking your FD apart. I look forward to your wrote-up. A guy did a GREAT one for an FD for the Porsch 928 awhile back on one of their owner's forums. Has a great bunch of pics to go with it. He greatly cautions everyone to "put it back together EXATCLY the same way it came apart; part for part.

The NEW injectors. I second what you said you did. Test them before you put them in. Anyone here MIGHT want to buy 10 of them even if you only need 8. I had one brand new that just did not spray correctly NO MATTER WHAT I did to it. Thru it away.


A mech friend of mine who comments on this board occasionally says he experiences 10-20% failure rate (his standards are a bit higher than the norm) with the new brass injectors.



Check your Work Shop Manual for the 400i. I think I saw the flow rates in the Mondi 8 manual and I ASSUME yours can be found in your manual too.

 

Disassembling the FD took only 15 minutes. Assembling after cleaning took 1 hour. The only problem that you can have is when the central gasket is damaged. That’s why you shouldn’t split it in halve by using an screw driver. This gasket is not for sale so you will have a real problem. I bought a few old Mercedes FD’s first to practice but afterward it wasn’t necessary. I have some spare parts for the FD from a Mercedes six cylinder FD.

This weekend I will build the fd back in and test it once more. I will post some more pictures later.
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That was going to be My first question, Who sells replacement gaskets. I hate to have to try to re-use gaskets. That alone might keep Me from trying to clean out the FD until a real problem with it surfaces.

 

This gasket is doesn't stick to the aluminum housing. By two Mercedes and my two Ferrari FD's it just came lose very easy. The gasket can be reused. I replaced all the O ring by viton o rings. I had to buy bags of 100 from each o ring so I have some stock now. The cupper O Rings on the outside are also available. If any body needs these cupper or viton O rings please send a e-mail.

Geert jan

 

I have done good business with http://mrinjectoruk.auctivacommerce.com/Default.aspx

Quick and good quality products. No affiliation, just a satisfied customer.

 

I will for the FD for an 1981 308GTSi. I have two FDs and am gunna try to rebuild one myself and send the other off to a Pro in the US likely.


Rebuild cost here in Germany is close to $1000 EU. YES, a THOUSAND EURO !!!!!

 

mwr4440

I know. The prices when you send them to Bosch are crazy. It took me 1,5 hour to clean them. Please check the side http://www.hehlhans.de/tipp98-24.htm. You can read German I assume. If you want to replace the viton o rings and copper o rings I can send them to you. I will ad the pictures of rebuilding a FD for a 400i later in a new thread.

Geert jan

 

i've been following this discussion because it somewhat relates to a problem
i'm having with my '87 328.

back in june i sent the car in for a 3yr. major. along with the schedule of reg.
service items i added the following:
-install verrell's fuel injection line kit
-new brass fuel injectors

sadly, the car suffers from an odd "stutter" when under power. idle seems normal.
when driving the stutter appears and is most apparent up to 4000rpm when it
seems to diminish.

the attending mechanic and i changed all the spark plug wiring, extenders, etc.
to no avail.

now that the driving season is winding down, i'm returning the car and hopefully
determine where the fault lies.

prior to the major service, the car ran flawlessly. knowing the age of the car,
something else may be amiss. but given how she ran before the service, i can't
believe new injectors or f.i.lines could cause this to happen.

has anyone else experienced this odd coincidence after changing f.i.parts?

 

bill check the fuel pressure and controle pressure of the fuel system.
check the flow of each port of the fuel distributor. If it is a fuel problem
(to low pressure) or dirt in the fuel system you will notice. Did you replace
the fuel filter after the fuel accumulator?

 

yes.
i changed the fuel filter prior to the 3yr. service and the new injectors and fuel line.

 

I started a new thread about injector testing and cleaning.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=299489&highlight=injector+cleaning

 

Bill,

The brass injectors FAIL from NEW about 10-20% of the time. They all MUST be tested BEFORE you put them in.

Need 8? Buy 10. I had one that would not work right right out of the box and I thru it away after trying to "fix" it. This is failure rate substanciated buy some of the known and trusted PROs here.

I have lots of fuel related problems I am sorting with some help of one of those PROs, but one of the problems is that at idle they all flow pretty evenly. As I increase flow by depressing the metering plate to sim stepping harder on the gas pedal, differences in flow between the injectors becomes VERY appearant.

It could be a single issue like a semi plugged FD port or metal/plastic injector line or it could be a combination of several issues to include low fuel pressure at higher RPMs PLUS one of the aformentioned problems. Could be a BAD injector too, but in my case I think I eliminated that possibility because the issue was there BEFORE I swapped out injectors.

Hope that gave you some places to start looking. BTW this is likely going to be a LONG and time consuming thing to chase down and fix if you are a "Shade-Tree Wrench" like me. All the combinations and permutations you have to test and eliminate to ensure the entire 8-cylinder system is functioning properly is mindboggling.


Oh, and SAFETY FIRST.

- engine cold .... "Check!"
- proper ventalation .... "Check!"
- fire extinguisher (or two) on-hand ....... "Check!!!!"
etc.

 

Geert jan,

Sorry, NO. I am an American living in Germany and my German is pretty poor. But my wife is German so I'll try that route. Thanx for the link.


Question. You are working on a Bosch FD used in a 12 cylinder configuation. I have a 8-Port Bosch FD. Respectfully, ARE YOU SURE the internals (O-rings, washers, etc.) are identical.

If you are sure they are the same, I'll give you my German address and how would I pay you?

Mark

 

Mark,

There will be a difference between the 6 port and 8 port FD for sure. The big o rings inside will be different. I had to buy bags of 100 so if you send me an email with the metric size I can look what I, can do for you.

Geert Jan

 

Geert jan,

Will do next week.

Wife's parents and sister are inbound (coming over) for the weekend. I'll be ahhhhhh ..... B U S Y


What is the impossible to find black gasket seperating the top and bottom halves of the FD made out of?

 

Good luck for the weekend mark,

If its easier for you I can make a list with all the o rings I have. (Just read the front of all the bags).

The central black gasket in my 400 i fd is 16/100 mm thick I’m not sure what material they used. But it is pre formed with a pit for every chamber in it. If you can find a e.g. viton gasket material in 16/100 mm you still have to make this sort of pit in it. Just cutting a new gasket won’t work. Its better to look for a other “mengenteiler” on ebay.de for a 8 cylinder car from the same build year and use that one for spare parts. I have two Mercedes six cylinder fd’s for spare parts. I have the mengenteiler (FD) list of Bosch with al the different models in a pdf file. I can mail it to you.

 

Actually they are GREAT folks.

Geert, THAT WOULD BE GREAT !!!!!! THANX in Advance.

I wonder what if any other cars, especially EURO cars (BMW, MB, Prosch etc., that the FD from a 1981 308GTSi was also installed on. Do you have that info? The ones that come off a Ferrari being broken up for parts is just beyond CRAZY MONEY.


Got other fuel system questions too. Got an email address so I can attach photos?

Mark